# Are There Sects of Islam OK with Drinking Alcohol? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 14, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188 "2011-12-14T16:51:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/21 "2011-12-15T12:56:25Z")
What about Persia? The famous poet Omar Khyyam was always praising wine. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/22 "2011-12-15T13:23:52Z")
I’ve been out drinking with Muslims on various occasions. For some of them it’s a case of “drinking when the Imam is not watching”. For others, their particular flavor of Islam holds that the prohibition is not on drinking but on drunkenness, and that moderate and sensible consumption of alcohol is permitted. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/23 "2011-12-15T13:40:56Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Everywhere I’ve seen states that its only legal for non-muslims to buy Alcohol. See here: > [http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.com/2011/10/pakistan-beer-over-belief-as-alcohol.html](http://ahmadiyyatimes.blogspot.com/2011/10/pakistan-beer-over-belief-as-alcohol.html) > "It’s like ordering a pizza,” an Islamabad resident said. “You pick up the phone and in 15 minutes the bootlegger is at your front door.” So sure it’s available, but only because non-muslims use their permits to sell to muslims illegally. > > Whether that’s enforced or not is another mater, but what does the current law actually say for muslims in Pakistan? Pretty damn inaccurate. It is true that it is difficult to get it legally and many places will not sell to you if you are a muslim and that bootleggers dominate, but it is certainly possible to buy it legally and drinking per se is not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/24 "2011-12-15T13:42:58Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’ve been out drinking with Muslims on various occasions. For some of them it’s a case of “drinking when the Imam is not watching”. For others, their particular flavor of Islam holds that the prohibition is not on drinking but on drunkenness, and that moderate and sensible consumption of alcohol is permitted. BTW what the hell do you mean by “Imam not watching”. Clerical roles in non Shia muslim society is very limited. More likely when it can be deniable to family. ---
**Author:** ![raskolnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47c2d/32.png) [@raskolnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raskolnik)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/25 "2011-12-15T13:50:50Z")
25% syrian. But orthodox. Drinking is rare, but smoking was crazy common. I’m leaning in on the Arab/Non arab side of things. That said the Lebs were always TALKING about Raqqi, but not always drinking it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/26 "2011-12-15T13:59:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > BTW what the hell do you mean by “Imam not watching”. Clerical roles in non Shia muslim society is very limited. More likely when it can be deniable to family. It was a reference to post #4 and not meant to be taken literally. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/27 "2011-12-15T14:00:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You are wrong about Pakistan. Drinking is fine as long as it is in the home or in a licensed bar. Being caught drinking in a public place or in a state of intoxication is illegal. I’m having trouble interpreting the last sentence. You say “in a public place OR in a state of intoxication”. Does this mean that you can drink but that being in a state of intoxication, even in a private place, like your home, is illegal? If someone drinks in a private home or a licensed bar and becomes intoxicated, can they not legally travel to their home while being intoxicated? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/28 "2011-12-15T14:37:34Z")
I think he means that it’s illegal to – (1) Consume alcohol in a public place (i.e., not in a private home or in a licensed bar) (2) Be intoxicated in public. And, yes, if you’re intoxicated and trying to get home you could be in trouble if you’re caught. At least part of the idea is to create an incentive not to get intoxicated in the first place. This is not all that different from the the laws in a lot of places in the United States, where you can be cited for being intoxicated in public. ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/29 "2011-12-15T16:00:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > From my experience, Bosnian Muslims were generally not ones to shy away from a stiff drink of slivovica (slivovitz/plum brandy), but I’m not sure how it officially plays into their faith. I assume it’s technically forbidden, but someone with a little more knowledge might be able to chime in. Ahhhh I LOVE Slivovcia…got a bottle for my 50th Birthday from one of my assistant managers. She is Bosnian/Serb war baby and also a Muslim. She drinks like a fish but always claims “I’m not even close to intoxicated”…hmmm? My understanding is, that in her family drinking is ok. She also shuns pork like the plague…I find that curious. FTR Slivovcia seems to span religious lines, my former father in law turned me on to it. He was a Croatian catholic. tsfr ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/30 "2011-12-15T16:45:22Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > are also extremely tolerant, in Indonesia and Malaysia alcohol is freely available to muslims and non-muslims. At least in Malaysia that’s not exactly true- though it is easy to get alcohol, all the cans are labelled ‘not for sale to Muslims’, and it is illegal for Muslims to buy them. A bar I went to there was closed down the following year, having been raided and found serving alcohol to Muslim holidaymakers; there was a large sign on the door stating this. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/31 "2011-12-15T16:47:50Z")
Saudis seem to like drinking quite a bit. I would almost say that every palace has one or more bars in it. The preferred tipple is Johny Walker Black but if that’s not available they’ll get into the local moonshine known as “Sid.” The manufacturers will rent a villa and stick a still and some mash barrels in there with a few Fillipinos to run it. Amazingly nasty stuff. The expats tend to run stills as well but as they’re not doing it commercially (mostly) they will triple or quadruple distill it and that stuff is smooth. Plenty of homemade wine available as well. The Rauches grape juice company sells that stuff by the pickup load. It’s illegal as hell but as long as you stay home, nothing is said. Sort of “Don’t ask, Don’t tell.” Funny thing, most of the Saudis tend to think the expats are drinking until they can barely walk every night since it’s technically allowable for Christians. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/32 "2011-12-15T17:34:10Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Pretty damn inaccurate. It is true that it is difficult to get it legally and many places will not sell to you if you are a muslim… How do they _know_ if you are a Muslim? If you go in the store wearing a rosary, or a yarmulke, or something else that identifies one as a follower of another religion, would they be able to “out” you as really Muslim? Is it actually illegal to sell to Muslims, or are store managers, owners, and employees generally devout enough that the lost revenue is overwhelmed by their duty to God? What if you’ve genuinely converted to Christianity or something? Maybe I don’t fully understand the dynamics of Pakistan - here in the US, nobody’s ever inquired as to my religion at a store. Mormons here are supposed to avoid alcohol. Nobody ever asks “Umm, are you Mormon? Cuz if you are, I won’t sell this to you.” before selling me alcohol. They just sell it and let your relationship with God stand or fall on your own behavior - they won’t police you. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/33 "2011-12-15T17:38:18Z")
In a lot of societies, people often ask each other personal questions, even if they’re just engaged in an ordinary business transaction. They ask about your family, your job, your place of origin. They might also ask you about your religion. Or they just might think they’ve figured it out. They won’t do it just to figure out if they want to sell you alcohol, but just because that’s how people interact in that society. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/34 "2011-12-15T19:37:01Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Does it technically say all alcohol is forbidden, or does it ban wine, and by extension most assume it bans all alcohol? I’ve never read the original. In Michael Crichton’s **Eaters of the Dead** , the story’s Muslim narrator partakes of mead while traveling among Northmen. Crichton claims that, “the Islamic injunction against alcohol is literally an injunction against the fermented fruit of the grape, i.e., wine. Fermented drinks of honey are specifically permitted to Muslims.” Whether he is correct, I cannot say. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/35 "2011-12-15T19:37:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > What about Persia? The famous poet Omar Khyyam was always praising wine. So did Khomeini. But it was always in the context of poetry ( Iran is a very poetry-philic nation ) and the glories of the afterlife. To a extremely devout cleric like Khomeini it may stem from the idea that if it is forbidden and so many people stray from their faith to imbibe, it must be super-awesome. It’s a stand-in for the pleasures of the next life that you deny yourself in this one as an expression of faith. So while Khayyam may have been drinker, his writings can’t be considered proof positive of that. _However_, Iran was a significant [wine producer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirazi_wine) at one time. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/36 "2011-12-15T19:45:03Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Kind of like the folksy advice I’ve heard about fishing with Mormons… > > _Never take a Mormon fishing, he’ll drink all your beer. Take two or more, then you can have all the beer yourse_lf. Which reminds me of a joke in these parts: What’s the difference between Baptists and Methodists? Methodists wave at each other in the liquor store. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/37 "2011-12-15T20:00:39Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > To a extremely devout cleric like Khomeini it may stem from the idea that if it is forbidden and so many people stray from their faith to imbibe, it must be super-awesome. Ahhh, the “self-hating homophobe” theory 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/38 "2011-12-15T20:57:52Z")
There is at least one Muslim group that allows drinking formally. The [Alevi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) of Turkey use red wine as a specific sacrement in [religious ceremonies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi#Cem). I spent some time living with a group of Alevi and can attest that this is not merely a communion sip, but that literal intoxication is a specific and intended part of the ritual (in the same way, I imagine, mescaline or ganga may be used elsewhere). Red wine has specific symbolism in parts of the ceremony, but other types of liquor (e.g. raki) flow freely. It’s worth noting that the Alevi, being an anti-authority Shi’a folk religion with a range of folk elements, have a history of being persecuted by both the political and religious establishment and have elements that more mainstream Muslims would find at best superstitious and at worst forbidden. One of my strongest memories with them is when, during Ramadan, we drove out of the (mainstream) Turkish city to a hidden field to purposefully start a bbq (and start eating, and much drinking) well before the sun set, and tales of Ali were told all night. The stories that involve intoxication, yes, come directly from the tone and spirit of something by Omar Khyyam. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/39 "2011-12-15T22:51:15Z")
> **[Hanafi school](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanafi)** > > Others > Others > In terms of Ihsan: > [@](#): > > Abū Ḥanīfa, taking a literal view (harfiyyah), held that “wine” (خمر/Khamr in Quranic/classical Arabic), i.e. the fermented juice of dates or grapes, was absolutely prohibited but it was permissible to drink small non-intoxicating amounts of other alcoholic beverages (e.g. made from honey or grains). Later Hanafi scholars tend to rule that all alcoholic beverages are prohibited regardless of source. That said, the editors of the Wikipedia page on Rakı ( [Rakı - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rak%C4%B1) )seem to think that Hanafi Islam prohibits intoxication rather than ethanol consumption as such. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188/40 "2011-12-16T01:35:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > but it is certainly possible to buy it legally and drinking per se is not illegal. Have the 1977 laws banning Alcohol for muslims in Pakistan been repealed? Like I said, unenforced and widely available is not the same as legal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-sects-of-islam-ok-with-drinking-alcohol/606188.md?page=3)