# Are there security clearances higher than Top Secret? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049 "2004-04-26T06:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/1 "2004-04-26T06:07:50Z")
Who has/had the higher security clearance, when my father was in the Air Force he was. * * * an intelligence officer who rose to the rank of colonel and had a top secret level clearance. However, I have a friend who is being recruited for a job at Los Alamos and was told that the offer is contingent on him being able to qualify for a so called Q level clearance (he already has an “L” level clerance) which they said will take about six months to process. He casually remarked to me that a Q clearance is higher than a Top Secret level clearance. What’s the truth on this matter? Would my friend be entitled to see state secrets if he gets this clearence that my father would not have been qualified to see (obviously on a need to know basis). Are there other little known security clearences that are even higher? ---
**Author:** ![owlofcreamcheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@owlofcreamcheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlofcreamcheese)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/2 "2004-04-26T06:13:07Z")
it has holes in it ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/3 "2004-04-26T06:16:49Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > Who has/had the higher security clearance, when my father was in the Air Force he was. > > * * * > > an intelligence officer who rose to the rank of colonel and had a top secret level clearance. However, I have a friend who is being recruited for a job at Los Alamos > and was told that the offer is contingent on him being able to qualify for a so called Q level clearance (he already has an “L” level clerance) which they said will take about six months to process. He casually remarked to me that a Q clearance is higher than a Top Secret level clearance. What’s the truth on this matter? \*\*Would my friend be entitled to see state secrets if he gets this clearence \*\*that my father would not have been qualified to see (obviously on a need to know basis). Are there other little known security clearences that are even higher? No Secrecy is based on compartmentalization, he is cleared for dealing with knowledge , sources(maybe) and communicating with other persons in pursuit of that project. Just because he has involvement with the F22 project , does not entitle him/her to have knowledge of the seawolf attack sub , as an example. Having someone with knowledge of the crown jewels (the whole enchilada) would be too damaging to a nations security Declan ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/4 "2004-04-26T06:20:12Z")
instead of just using classified, secret and top secret? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/5 "2004-04-26T06:23:03Z")
The higher the level of sercurity the fewer people _of that level_ have access as **Declan** said. I will have crappy low level clearance at my upcoming job. Documents authorized for this level float freely and anyone at the level can see them. The higher the security level the more you are compartmentalized. To clarify **Declan’s** statement, just because you have the clearance level required to see a certain document doesn’t mean you will be allowed to unless it is necessary as part of your job. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/6 "2004-04-26T06:32:26Z")
clearances exist. Why not just keep it simple with the old tried and true, classified, secret, and top secret levels? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/7 "2004-04-26T06:40:11Z")
Risk management. Each new level allows possible access to more secrets. It takes a significant effort to clear someone at the highest levels, to deam them an acceptable risk with the info. You do not need to expend that effort for some jobs, so you assign a lower security level. You are more careful about who gets to see the launch codes for our missiles than for who gets to see the latest stealth breakthrough. So, though you only have access to a certain restricted amount of info at your security level, you get NOTHING above it. Consider the tiers to be the primary control, and limited access in a tier a secondary control. Also, as I understand it, things tend to widen out at the top for people who need to coordinate between different projects and have access to a wide variety of info. ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/8 "2004-04-26T06:44:28Z")
“death ray technology” or even something more exotic (anti-gravity at DARPA or something like it) what clearance would they have Top Secret, Q or somethiing else entirely? ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/9 "2004-04-26T06:46:11Z")
You need at least security level P to know why you would need security level Q. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/10 "2004-04-26T07:15:22Z")
widely used (at least I think they are) by the DOE. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/11 "2004-04-26T07:31:27Z")
Dunno how this works in the US, but I’m assuming the schemes are similar to those here in Israel (as our Clearsnce Level names are blatant translations of the American ones), so here goes: [ul]There is no “Clearance Level” above “Top Secret”.[li] **All** “Top Secret” documentation is disseminated on a “need to know” basis only.[_] **Some** “Top Secret” Projects or Intelligence sources require **additional** screening, above and beyond your “basic” Top Secret level - so I guess they may be said to be “more secret” than others; but they are still classified “Top Secret”[_]Even if you get this Special Clearance, you cannot obtain access to data about **other** , non-related “Special Clearance” projects, nor to documents that you don’t need that are part of the project you _are_ cleared for - nor even to “Plain Old Top Secret” documents that you don’t **Need to Know** aboutIn fact, as others have already implied, having Special Clearance for a “Special Top Secret” (so to speak) project may actually **hinder** one, rather than help, in obtaining Special Clearance for other projects - because The Powers That Be (rightly) don’t want too many people knowing too much[/ul][/li] Dani ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Deschain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/73ab20/32.png) [@Roland\_Deschain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Deschain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/12 "2004-04-26T07:47:31Z")
Are they just different names for classified, and secret cleaences or what? I really want to focus on the L and Q aspect as well as how they integrate into the overall picture of security clearences. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/13 "2004-04-26T13:56:33Z")
I was almost sure that Cecil had addressed this one, but I couldn’t find anything in the archives. So, let’s refer it over to the big guy… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/14 "2004-04-26T15:27:54Z")
L and Q clearances are issued by the Department of Energy for matters specifically relating to nuclear weapons. I do not personally know anyone who works for the Department of Energy, but folks in other agencies – like DOD, for example – who have work to do that relates to nuclear weapons will generally hold a Top Secret clearance from DOD, a Q clearance from DOE, and perhaps a SCI (special compartmentalized information) clearance, which I believe is handled by CIA. Top Secret is the highest broad category of clearance issued by the government, and Q is analagous to TS for nuclear weapons, as I said. (L is analagous to Secret) To protect more sensitive secrets within a clearnace level, as other have said, there are basically subsets of clearances. SCI has to do with intelligence sources and methods, Yankee White has to do with being in close proximity to the President, etc. DOE has subsets to its own clearnaces, IIRC, having to do wtih Restricted Data (guts of nuclear weapons) and Formerly Restricted Data (I think having more to do with old nukes). All clearances, no matter what the level, are always on a need to know basis. One could have all the clearances in the world, but that does not entitle that person to saunter over to Area 51 and examine the alien bodies simply to satify their curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/15 "2004-04-26T15:31:39Z")
An obvious example is **crypto** access. No matter how much you are in the need of knowing about the stealth bomber, your need to understand the nuts and bolts of cryptographic methods is limited to where to take your documents to be encyrpted and decrypted. For really sensitive materials, just because you know how to decrypt the most secure system doesn’t mean that you have a need to know which member of the Russian Parliament is an American spy. So, you can decrypt the message, but you are not allowed to know who “Jackrabbit” is, or who he reports to, or what he reports on. His reports would probably be superencrypted, with a much less advanced cypher, that the “Rabbithole” project handles themselves. So, even with your top secreet crypto acces clearence, you can’t even know what method is used to encrypt a “Jackrabbit” cypher. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/16 "2004-04-26T15:44:26Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > No > > Secrecy is based on compartmentalization, he is cleared for dealing with knowledge , sources(maybe) and communicating with other persons in pursuit of that project. While this is true, implying that there’s no _linear_ ordering of security clearances, it can’t be denied that there are clearances which are (by any reasonable definition) higher than “top secret”. My standard example is that the name of the clearance needed to enter the site of NSA’s headquarters is itself top secret. If the very name of clearance A falls under the provisions of clearance B, I’d say A was higher than B. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/17 "2004-04-26T15:47:21Z")
Some searching around the web indicates to me that the following general information is unclassified: There are only three general levels of security classification in the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD): Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret. To these can be added caveats, such as NOFORN (restricts access from foreign nationals). Access to any classified information is on a need-to-know basis. In addition, the higher the classification, the more likely that access will be compartmentalized. The designations of these compartmentalizations are themselves often classified. These various compartmentalizations may be grouped into categories, such as “Single Integrated Operational Plan—Extremely Sensitive Information” (SIOP-ESI), and “Sensitive Compartmented Information” (SCI). Personnel who need clearances for their jobs will be subjected to a background investigation (BI) and/or a special background investigation (SBI) conducted by the Defense Investigative Service (DIS). The latter is required for access to SIOP-ESI and/or SCI. My own SBI took over two years to complete, and included interviews with my high school teachers and classmates. Online cites: [http://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/displayDir.cfm?Internal\_ID=N\_PR\_1450\_010C\_&page\_name=Chapter8](http://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/displayDir.cfm?Internal_ID=N_PR_1450_010C_&page_name=Chapter8) [http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14144/css/14144\_238.htm](http://www.tpub.com/content/advancement/14144/css/14144_238.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/18 "2004-04-26T15:53:33Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > I was almost sure that Cecil had addressed this one, but I couldn’t find anything in the archives. So, let’s refer it over to the big guy… Wasn’t Cecil, but there was another thread on this not long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/19 "2004-04-26T16:00:07Z")
There is also “right hand” and “left hand” clearances. If you hold one, you aren’t allowed to know what the other is doing. This is common in government agencies. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049/20 "2004-04-26T16:41:14Z")
Does the President have security clearance on every matter? If not, what is he not cleared for? If so, is that clearance granted to him automatically because of the office, or must he be vetted? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-security-clearances-higher-than-top-secret/242049.md?page=2)