# Are there societies where sexual abuse is rare, how do they do that **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030 "2013-05-10T21:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/81 "2013-05-13T01:52:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Sorry but that requires posting a novel, and I’m not up to doing all that from my Ipad. If you doubt that I’m accurately assessing this poster, you can do a search on his name and read his posts himself. Draw your own conclusions about him. Did you mention his name? > [@](#): > > As for your position in this thread, you have sided with **Der’s** stance that rape is mostly about sex, and you have opined that researchers who emphasize the role of power as a motive for rape are blinded by confirmation bias or some other agenda. Then you suggested that rape psychology lacks rigor and is fraught with flawed study designs. And yet you have not presented any reasoned-based arguments to support these claims. Yes, unfortunately I don’t have time to engage in the cite-war. So for the purpose of this thread I’ve stated my opinion, and I can’t back it up right now. And that’s where we have to draw a line. If this thread is still going in a couple of days time, or better, if someone starts a thread actually about rape psychology I would be happy to participate. > [@](#): > > Believe it or not, it’s not necessary to hunt for a reason to reject a paper. If you have to rack your brain to figure out the flaws in it, then you should immediately question whether you are open-minded enough to assess it objectively. Who said I was hunting for flaws in it? I said, on the face of it, it doesn’t conflict with my position, but unfortunately I can’t read it completely right now. Genuinely, I would be interested if it provided compelling evidence supporting the claim that rape is mostly about domination. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/82 "2013-05-13T02:00:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Did you mention his name? **TheWhoToTheWhatNow** ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/83 "2013-05-13T11:52:45Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I was listening to NPR a bit this morning and there was an interview about sexual abuse. One of the risk factors from a sociological perspective is how empowered women are. In societies where women are less empowered, sexual abuse is higher (however I don’t know if this is just sexual abuse of women or sexual abuse of women, men and children). > > One of the thing the researcher being interviewed said was that the rates of sexual abuse in societies can vary from rampant to nearly non-existent. So what cultures and societies have virtually no sexual abuse? Seeing how sexual abuse is such a major public health issue, how have some cultures managed to make it rare? Part of me wonders if they were just confusing the rates of reporting sex abuse with the rates of the crime. But that seems like too amateur a mistake to make. > > Did anyone hear that story, or have any idea how some cultures do it? > > In the US I think only about 5-10% of men have committed rape or child molestation, but despite that something like 20-50% of people have been sexually abused. I think an even smaller subset of that number, maybe 1-2% of men, are serial sex criminals who create about half the victims. > > It seems like controlling or persuading that 1-2% would be pretty difficult. I once saw a program on TV about a tribe in South America where the children were allowed to understand sexuality as a part of life, according to the person who made the movie there was very little if any sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/84 "2013-05-13T12:04:34Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Indeed. We’ve really lost touch with our biblical values. What Biblical Values? Have you read the whole Bible? It has many incidents of sexual abuse etc. Maybe take another read? The Bible I have read many , many times has incest, child abuse, adultery, Murder etc. Even David the Chosen of God was a Murderer and Adulterer! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/85 "2013-05-13T18:16:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And legal prostitution, of course. Please. Just ask [the Honest Courtesan.](http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/coyote-beauty/) ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/86 "2013-05-13T19:15:26Z")
uh i know some of you guys like prostitutes and everything but there really is no reason to think that decriminalizing prostitution will produce any kind of change in sexual assault rates REAL TALK ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/87 "2013-05-13T19:41:34Z")
“Prostitution is illegal and I could go to jail if I’m caught, so lemme go rape this woman over here instead! Yup, that’s the ticket!” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/88 "2013-05-13T19:44:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Good thing they didn’t make that claim. Read it again, this time taking care to note that the stuff about porn use and their definition of “hypersexed” rapists are independent from one another. > > And I’m LOLing at the idea that there is some worldwide conspiracy among researchers to lie about rape. It sounds like you’ve taken a page out of the Creationist’s Handbook of Willful Ignorance with this nonsense. Or maybe you’ve taken some lessons from climate change deniers? Same school of thought. When confronted with evidence that goes against your dogma, you can only respond with “They must be liars with a political agenda!” > > Since you’re reluctant to accept what research has shown, how about you conduct some surveys of your own and then come back and tells us what rape is all about. I’ll listen with open ears. You don’t need a wordwide conspiracy to get researchers all over the world to work with misleading figures, you just need a confluence of interest. It’s happening right now in the field of sex trafficking, where the government and various NGOs have for years used figures from [seriously flawed studies](http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/a-tale-that-grew-in-the-telling/) that drastically overstate the number of women who are being trafficked, such as by conflating being “at risk” for being trafficked with “being trafficked.” Governments like such flawed studies because they have constituencies that do. Moral conservatives like them because they make prostitution seem evil. Neofeminists like them because they allow them to attack prostitution by making all prostitutes seem like a victim class. Law enforcement and NGOs like them because “ka-ching” they make for big budgets. I don’t have any numbers on rape statistics, clearly it’s difficult to get good numbers there, but the idea that the stats are inflated is quite believable. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/89 "2013-05-13T19:47:06Z")
> [@colander](#): > > uh i know some of you guys like prostitutes and everything but there really is no reason to think that decriminalizing prostitution will produce any kind of change in sexual assault rates > > REAL TALK Well, the claim has been advanced that reducing sexual frustration might reduce the incidence of rape, tied in with the claim that rape is at least in part sexual. So legal prostitution might help a lot with that. If you have a counter-argument, please present it. Just saying “there really is no reason to think” is not an argument. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/90 "2013-05-13T19:54:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I don’t have any numbers on rape statistics, clearly it’s difficult to get good numbers there, but the idea that the stats are inflated is quite believable. Lots of ideas are believable. That vaccination causes autism is believable. Should I just go ahead and swallow this theory without any convincing data to go on? Or should I at least consider the volumes of research published on the subject that show this association is spurious? I mean, kids cry when they get those shots. Why are they crying, if vaccines aren’t evil? Answer me that. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/91 "2013-05-13T19:54:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You don’t need a wordwide conspiracy to get researchers all over the world to work with misleading figures, you just need a confluence of interest. It’s happening right now in the field of sex trafficking, where the government and various NGOs have for years used figures from [seriously flawed studies](http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/a-tale-that-grew-in-the-telling/) that drastically overstate the number of women who are being trafficked, such as by conflating being “at risk” for being trafficked with “being trafficked.” > > Governments like such flawed studies because they have constituencies that do. Moral conservatives like them because they make prostitution seem evil. Neofeminists like them because they allow them to attack prostitution by making all prostitutes seem like a victim class. Law enforcement and NGOs like them because “ka-ching” they make for big budgets. > > I don’t have any numbers on rape statistics, clearly it’s difficult to get good numbers there, but the idea that the stats are inflated is quite believable. So, here’s a paragraph I found on that blog you’ve been linking to, **Evil Captor**. (The author is speaking of how researchers conducting a University of Pennsylvania study are, in her opinion, biased towards finding evidence of abuses where there are none.) > [@](#): > > Reading the descriptions of these categories is a jaw-dropping experience; one wonders how the authors could possibly have been unaware of the flagrant exposure of their biases (of which there are quite a few). Just looking at porn is considered somehow exploitative and **pederasty is automatically classed as exploitation even if voluntary.** I think you can stop linking to that blog now. It really does not make the case you seem to think it is making. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/92 "2013-05-13T19:55:34Z")
> [@colander](#): > > uh i know some of you guys like prostitutes and everything but there really is no reason to think that decriminalizing prostitution will produce any kind of change in sexual assault rates > > REAL TALK Agreed. Of all the arguments put forth whenever somehow or other the issue of rape comes up that’s the silliest. Based on that logic there should be no sexual assaults in Thailand or Iran.\* The idea that rapists engage in rape because they have a difficult time getting women to have consensual sex with them is a completely unsubstantiated dreamed up by insecure, socially awkward men who have a difficult time relating to women. In other words, those suffering from “nice guy syndrome.” \*. Yes, prostitution is technically illegal in Iran but with Mutah(temporary marriage) which is sanctioned by the government it might as well be legal. They just term it something else. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/93 "2013-05-13T20:03:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Lots of ideas are believable. That vaccination causes autism is believable. Should I just go ahead and swallow this theory without any convincing data to go on? Or should I at least consider the volumes of research published on the subject that show this association is spurious? > > I mean, kids cry when they get those shots. Why are they crying, if vaccines aren’t evil? Answer me that. Argue with the numbers and facts, not silly metaphors. I have shown you an instance of very bogus studies being advanced to support a view by governments and NGOs. Your previous post mocked the notion that worldwide conspiracies based on bogus, cooked-up figures was possible. It’s not only possible, it’s currently happening. I dont have numbers on the rape studies themselves, but you’ll have to come up with something better than “that kind of thing can’t happen here!” because that kind of thing IS happening here. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/94 "2013-05-13T20:07:03Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well, the claim has been advanced that reducing sexual frustration might reduce the incidence of rape, tied in with the claim that rape is at least in part sexual. So legal prostitution might help a lot with that. If you have a counter-argument, please present it. Just saying “there really is no reason to think” is not an argument. In addition to post #87, wherein I highlighted the illogic in thinking a dude would rather risk going to jail for rape rather than risk persecution for hiring an illegal prostitute, [you should also consider the fact that prostitutes are more likely to be raped than other women.](http://www.economist.com/node/17967028). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/95 "2013-05-13T20:10:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well, the claim has been advanced that reducing sexual frustration might reduce the incidence of rape, tied in with the claim that rape is at least in part sexual. So legal prostitution might help a lot with that. Can you give us some examples of highly respected, peer-reviewed studies suggesting that rapists are motivated by “sexual frustration” and that somehow or other women in Thailand, Iran and similar countries are less likely to get raped? Hell, is there any evidence that sexual assaults are less common in Rhode Island where its de facto legal than Massachusetts or in Las Vegas, where it’s de jure legal than in comparable cities in the US? In my own experience there’ve been plenty of people like Mike Tyson, to take an extreme example, who have no problem finding consenting sexual partners who still engage in rape because, in his own words\*\* “I like to hurt women when I make love to them. I like to hear them scream with pain, to see them bleed.” \*\* ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/96 "2013-05-13T20:13:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Argue with the numbers and facts, not silly metaphors. I have shown you an instance of very bogus studies being advanced to support a view by governments and NGOs. Your previous post mocked the notion that worldwide conspiracies based on bogus, cooked-up figures was possible. It’s not only possible, it’s currently happening. So does the existence of these “bogus studies” keep you from accepting government-funded science on climate change? What about obesity? Tobacco? What else do you reject because of your shaken faith in science advanced by government agencies and NGOs? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/97 "2013-05-13T20:20:32Z")
> [@colander](#): > > So, here’s a paragraph I found on that blog you’ve been linking to, **Evil Captor**. (The author is speaking of how researchers conducting a University of Pennsylvania study are, in her opinion, biased towards finding evidence of abuses where there are none.) > > I think you can stop linking to that blog now. It really does not make the case you seem to think it is making. I suspect that what she meant is that Humbert Humbert having sex with his neice Lolita is not necessarily the same thing as some stranger forcing her into prostitution, though if so, her phrasing is bad, because Humbert of course was exploiting her. In any event, I do not see how your point affects the thrust of my argument, which is that these studies are deeply flawed and widely used by governments and news organizations to support their various agendas. Would it help if I presented [another debunking of the study](http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-06-29/news/real-men-get-their-facts-straight-sex-trafficking-ashton-kutcher-demi-moore/)? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/98 "2013-05-13T20:24:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Can you give us some examples of highly respected, peer-reviewed studies suggesting that rapists are motivated by “sexual frustration” and that somehow or other women in Thailand, Iran and similar countries are less likely to get raped? > > Hell, is there any evidence that sexual assaults are less common in Rhode Island where its de facto legal than Massachusetts or in Las Vegas, where it’s de jure legal than in comparable cities in the US? > > In my own experience there’ve been plenty of people like Mike Tyson, to take an extreme example, who have no problem finding consenting sexual partners who still engage in rape because, in his own words\*\* “I like to hurt women when I make love to them. I like to hear them scream with pain, to see them bleed.” \*\* Nope, can’t be bothered. I merely pointed out that a counter-argument to the claim was flawed, I wasn’t supporting the claim itself. I personally think rape is a product of sociopathic thinking, an inability and/or unwillingness to empathize with the woman who is their victim. It’s not just that a guy gets horny and commits rape, it’s that he gets horny and ignores the fact that treating women like sex toys is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/99 "2013-05-13T20:26:17Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So does the existence of these “bogus studies” keep you from accepting government-funded science on climate change? What about obesity? Tobacco? > > What else do you reject because of your shaken faith in science advanced by government agencies and NGOs? Just because one group of studies is flawed, it does not mean all studies are flawed. I was just objecting to your contention that just because a lot of studies say something, it must be true. I notice you are no longer defending that position. Good idea! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030/100 "2013-05-13T20:28:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > In addition to post #87, wherein I highlighted the illogic in thinking a dude would rather risk going to jail for rape rather than risk persecution for hiring an illegal prostitute, [you should also consider the fact that prostitutes are more likely to be raped than other women.](http://www.economist.com/node/17967028). That could merely be because rapists figure they are more likely to get away with raping prostitutes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-societies-where-sexual-abuse-is-rare-how-do-they-do-that/658030.md?page=6)