# Are there some people with Down syndrome who are mentally normal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518 "2013-09-10T19:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TSBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@TSBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSBG)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/21 "2013-09-12T19:09:33Z")
I had a friend who used to volunteer at the Special Olympics, and she said that one problem she faced was horny male athletes–grown men who had not been properly socialized to handle sexuality, I’m guessing because parents/teachers erroneously considered them big kids. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/22 "2013-09-12T19:44:07Z")
> [@TSBG](#): > > I had a friend who used to volunteer at the Special Olympics, and she said that one problem she faced was horny male athletes–grown men who had not been properly socialized to handle sexuality, I’m guessing because parents/teachers erroneously considered them big kids. Perhaps not just that. There is also a lot of misunderstanding, sometimes difficulty reading certain social cues etc. They have a developmental disability, it can extend to many areas. Also, people with Down syndrome can be very affectionate, which can be taken just a little too far. But yes, I think sex ed is quite difficult for people with developmental disabilities, and in my experience there is room for improvement. Funny anecdote time: I worked in a hotel, on a learning-and-working project for young people with developmental disabilities. I was checking in a couple, when S. bursts into the reception and interrupts me to say: “I need to ask an important question!” - “OK S., just let me help these people, and then I’ll have time to answer your question.” S. looks relieved, and says: “Oh good, because I really need to know how to finger a girl!” 😃 (Also: see the above anecdote for why a developmental disability does not make a person a child. I’ve never had an emergency how-to-finger-a-girl question from a child. Thankfully.) ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/23 "2013-09-13T00:24:57Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > [Chris Burke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Burke_%28actor%29). No idea what his IQ is, but he’s a talented actor, writer and a kickass advocate for people with Down Syndrome. Sort of a separate question, but how is his health? Many folks with Down Syndrome die quite young. Does anyone know if Chris Burke has a bad heart or lung problems? I do see he has reached 48 and I thought many, many Down Syndrome folks don’t make it into their 50’s. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/24 "2013-09-13T02:16:26Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > So why the response? Certainly, we don’t have access to his IQ tests, but his chosen work in life indicates a pretty high IQ for his medical cohort, very possibly in the “mentally normal” range or even higher than average. Seems a valid example of what the OP was asking for. Speculative, but cromulent. “…or even higher than average…”?? I say ‘fantastical’, not just speculative. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/25 "2013-09-13T02:23:54Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > “…or even higher than average…”?? I say ‘fantastical’, not just speculative. Average is pretty stupid. Have you read YouTube comments? ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/26 "2013-09-13T09:42:04Z")
> [@](#): > > People with Down syndrome are known as having comparatively good social and emotional intelligence, and this would not be picked up by an IQ test. Being emotionally and socially intelligent is, in my opinion, much more important than being a mathematical/scientific genius who has no understanding of social situations and is unable to feel any empathy for others I wouldn’t quite say that…Down’s folks have realitively good social/emotional development for someone with mental disabilities…but it’s not as good as someone without mental disability…they can be friendly and know how to interact etc but even a lot of the high functioning ones can and will do stuff like hug random strangers… ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/27 "2013-09-13T15:34:27Z")
My friend’s daughter has Down Syndrome and seems perfectly “normal” to me. She’s very tiny so when I first met her I asked how old she was, thinking she’d say “9”, but she said “16.” She’s 17 now but looks like a 10 year old. Honestly, if you didn’t look at her eyes you wouldn’t even know she was Down’s. She recently achieved her Black Belt in Karate. One time the teachers in our area went on strike and stopped extra-curriculars. I knew my friend’s kid was in Track & Field so I asked if the strike had affected her. My friend said “No, she’s in the Special Olympics so she’s not affected.” I thought “That’s funny, why would she be in the Special…oh right.” ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/28 "2013-09-14T07:58:53Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Average is pretty stupid. Have you read YouTube comments? Hmmmm…good point…(looks off into the distance, meditating…) ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/29 "2013-09-14T13:56:04Z")
Why is Down’s Syndrome the only, uh, doubled chromosome disease you ever hear of? We’ve got 22 other chromosomes, why don’t people sometimes end up with extra copies of one of those? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/30 "2013-09-14T14:20:40Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Why is Down’s Syndrome the only, uh, doubled chromosome disease you ever hear of? We’ve got 22 other chromosomes, why don’t people sometimes end up with extra copies of one of those? Marketing. I’m dead serious. There are plenty of other [chromosomal abnormalities,](http://www.rarechromo.org/html/chromosomesanddisorders.asp) including doubling of other chromosomes. But they don’t generally produce beautiful babies with chubby cheeks and winning smiles. Often, they don’t produce babies who can live very long at all. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/31 "2013-09-14T15:19:16Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Why is Down’s Syndrome the only, uh, doubled chromosome disease you ever hear of? We’ve got 22 other chromosomes, why don’t people sometimes end up with extra copies of one of those? Triploidy of other chroosomes does occur all the time but they don’t make it to birth or even out of the first trimester very often. At least 15% of all conceptions result in spontaneous abortions and most of them have chromosomal abnormalities. Of triploidies that make it to term the only one with near the frequency of Downs is Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) and it is not all that often immediately obvious at birth. Trisomy 18 and 13 sometimes make it to birth but they typically don’t survive very long. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/32 "2013-09-14T15:41:07Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Why is Down’s Syndrome the only, uh, doubled chromosome disease you ever hear of? We’ve got 22 other chromosomes, why don’t people sometimes end up with extra copies of one of those? Rick Santorum’s daughter Bella has Edwards syndrome, which is trisomy 18, and there’s also Patau syndrome, which is trisomy 13. Unless those are mosaics, life expectancy is very brief if they even survive birth, usually days or weeks. ☹ There are some partial trisomy and translocation syndromes that cause varying levels of disability. One that comes to mind is IDIC-15, a partial duplication of the 15th chromosome. It causes autism-like symptoms and other developmental delays; my old hairdresser’s grandson had this, which is how I know about it. There’s even a syndrome called mosaic tetraploidy, where some of the cells have double sets of all the chromosomes. :eek: The sex chromosomes can be duplicated too. Women with Triple X syndrome have 3 X chromosomes, and AFAIK this usually doesn’t affect their health except that they are a bit taller than average and are usually infertile. Men with Klinefelter syndrome (XXY) are also tall, infertile, and often have reduced body hair and gynecomastia. The XYY syndrome in men used to be believed to be associated with criminal behavior, and this has since been disproven. Those men do have a tendency towards severe acne and infertility, and are also taller than average. p.s. There’s also Turner syndrome, which is a woman with a single X chromosome. Many do not survive to birth, but the ones who do generally have a normal life expectancy, although they have a peculiar appearance, are shorter than average, often do not go through spontaneous puberty, and frequently have learning and social disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/33 "2013-09-14T16:26:45Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Since Trisomy 21 is so nearly universally accompanied by some degree of mental retardation, and since mental impairment is the commonest component of the various features which combine to form the syndrome, I’d be inclined to think of an individual with normal mentation and trisomy 21 as a “Trisomy 21 variant” (and probably mosaic, at that) and not a “Down Syndrome.” If you are missing a key component, it’s harder to say you have the syndrome in question. But I guess that’s a bit of a nitpick, and one completely unsupported by much of anything. > > I think I’m bothered by the implication that a mental handicap should be something to be ashamed of, and therefore we’re going to emphasize the “normal” spectrum of presentation for a given set of deficiencies. What happens is that the vast majority just end up looking even more deficient against the outliers. I’m not sure garnering publicity for a high-functioning Down child does much besides setting an unrealistic expectation for the average Down kid. > [@DSeid](#): > > The “no true Down Syndrome” argument! > > I don’t know about emphasizing or not and don’t see any implication of shame. Those with Trisomy 21 who are of normal IQ are rare. Yes outliers. IQ of 50ish is a realistic expectation but quite a bit higher and lower _are_ both seen. Parents of Downs kids should not and do not expect kids with normal IQ and they generally do end up loving the kid they got as kids with Downs have lots of strengths and lots to love. Just be be pedantic about **Chief Pedants** post, or simply add my +1 to his _first_ paragraph, that he is perfectly correct in clearing up some definitions before language is promiscuosly abused–(mis)used–in the discussion now underway of his _second_ paragraph. Down Syndrome is a correct term for just what it is: a syndrome. The word is defined as a spectrum of symptoms. In this case, simply put, is that the syndrome we call Down comprises deficit of cognitive function. It is a sine qua non. The rare cases of where a person with Trisomy 21 has normal cognition does not have Down Syndrome. IOW, Whathesaid. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/34 "2013-09-14T17:05:03Z")
Huh, so there are a bunch of other trisomy problems – ignorance fought. I guess all the ‘other’ duplications are worse, as in, more likely to kill the fetus/child, and so there aren’t enough people with them to form a ‘known to the general public’ group. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/35 "2013-09-14T19:26:05Z")
Actually I will disagree with you **Leo**. Quite strongly. Down Syndrome is not _defined by_ cognitive impairment any more than it is defined by any other feature in isolation. It is not sine qua non and if you, or **CP** want to claim it is then I would ask you to provide a citation that supports such a claim. It is very commonly _associated with_ such, is _a typical feature of_ such, as are slanting eyes, a broad short skull, broad hands and short fingers. But it is not the defining feature. If you showed any of my fellow pediatricians or a geneticist an individual with Trisomy 21 with slanting eyes, widely spaced nipples, bilateral simian creases, short fingers, low set ears, and low body tone and told them that the individual also had a normal range IQ I will guarantee you with absolute certainty that we would ALL say that that individual has Down Syndrome. No question whatsoever. Okay, they might first say “Really?” but once shown the test results they would without question say that the individual was a person with Down Syndrome and with normal range IQ. Look at it this way: we often label a baby at birth on exam with no knowledge of future cognitive function and with the suspicion confirmed, in our minds, by the chromosome result. We are not waiting for a kid to demonstrate cognitive delay before they get the label and we would not remove the label if cognitive delay never occurs. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/36 "2013-09-14T20:03:36Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Huh, so there are a bunch of other trisomy problems – ignorance fought. > > I guess all the ‘other’ duplications are worse, as in, more likely to kill the fetus/child, and so there aren’t enough people with them to form a ‘known to the general public’ group. The chromosomes pairs are numbered 1-22 by size (with 1 being the largest. The 23rd pair are the sex chromosomes). 21nd pair chromosomes are second to smallest, and are much smaller than the largest ones. It is thought that the impact of duplicating much larger amounts of DNA, as in some of the other trisomy defects, contributes to the more profound negative impact on zygotic/embryonic/fetal survivability. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/37 "2013-09-15T07:41:02Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Actually I will disagree with you **Leo**. Quite strongly. Down Syndrome is not _defined by_ cognitive impairment any more than it is defined by any other feature in isolation. It is not sine qua non and if you, or **CP** want to claim it is then I would ask you to provide a citation that supports such a claim. It is very commonly _associated with_ such, is _a typical feature of_ such, as are slanting eyes, a broad short skull, broad hands and short fingers. But it is not the defining feature. > > If you showed any of my fellow pediatricians or a geneticist an individual with Trisomy 21 with slanting eyes, widely spaced nipples, bilateral simian creases, short fingers, low set ears, and low body tone and told them that the individual also had a normal range IQ I will guarantee you with absolute certainty that we would ALL say that that individual has Down Syndrome. No question whatsoever. Okay, they might first say “Really?” but once shown the test results they would without question say that the individual was a person with Down Syndrome and with normal range IQ. > > Look at it this way: we often label a baby at birth on exam with no knowledge of future cognitive function and with the suspicion confirmed, in our minds, by the chromosome result. We are not waiting for a kid to demonstrate cognitive delay before they get the label and we would not remove the label if cognitive delay never occurs. Yes, you’re right. In fact, I think by being pedantic I was actually paradoxically speaking for a more loose use of “syndrome,” as long as it’s understood. As you say, “Down Syndrome [but] …” Crucially, I spoke out of my league about sine qua non. I have more familiarity with lay and to an extent technical discussion of mood disorders, which of course have shading-spectra galore of sets of symptoms. ---
**Author:** ![inuittagluuqqak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@inuittagluuqqak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inuittagluuqqak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/38 "2013-09-15T11:09:01Z")
One thing I’ve wondered about: Are there any genetic benefits arising from Trisomy 21? Are there some genes on chromosome 21 for which it is more beneficial to have three copies of that gene than two copies? The substances produced by the genes on chromosome 21 are produced at a 1.5 times higher quantity in a person with Downs than a person without Downs, so maybe for some of these substances, having a higher quantity is better. For instance, I’ve heard that many common types of cancer are much less common in people with Trisomy 21 than in the general population. This is probably because they have three rather than two copies of certain tumor-suppressor genes found on chromosome 21. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/39 "2013-09-15T17:13:48Z")
> [@inuittagluuqqak](#): > > One thing I’ve wondered about: Are there any genetic benefits arising from Trisomy 21? Are there some genes on chromosome 21 for which it is more beneficial to have three copies of that gene than two copies? The substances produced by the genes on chromosome 21 are produced at a 1.5 times higher quantity in a person with Downs than a person without Downs, so maybe for some of these substances, having a higher quantity is better. For instance, I’ve heard that many common types of cancer are much less common in people with Trisomy 21 than in the general population. This is probably because they have three rather than two copies of certain tumor-suppressor genes found on chromosome 21. Isn’t it also possible that people with this condition don’t live long enough to develop cancer? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518/40 "2013-09-15T17:39:01Z")
Except that I think (s)he must have misheard. Individuals with Down Syndrome are prone to [more cancer](http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=215283), not less. In particular acute leukemia but also others. > [@](#): > > In this cohort study of individuals with DS, there was an elevated risk of incident leukemia and liver, testicular, and penile cancers compared with the general population. In addition, overall mortality risks were almost 8-fold higher for individuals with DS, reflecting increased mortality attributed to leukemia and a variety of nonneoplastic conditions. … The 26-fold increases in the risk of incident acute lymphocytic leukemia and acute nonlymphocytic leukemia in this cohort are consistent with the elevated relative risks and confidence limits noted in previous cohort studies in Norway6 and the United States.19- 20 Risk was highest among those aged 1 to 4 years, but it remained elevated compared with background rates until age 20 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-some-people-with-down-syndrome-who-are-mentally-normal/668518.md?page=3)