# Are there species whose females are more neotenous than women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 8, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019 "2015-06-08T22:59:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/1 "2015-06-08T22:59:48Z")
Do humans have the most neotenous females? Are there species where the males are more neotenous than the females? Please note that I include behavior within neoteny. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/2 "2015-06-09T10:08:02Z")
All domesticated species, including humans, tend to retain juvenile traits, both male and female. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/3 "2015-06-09T11:05:20Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Do humans have the most neotenous females? > > Are there species where the males are more neotenous than the females? > > Please note that I include behavior within neoteny. 1. You seem to be assuming that women are more neotenous than men, but I can’t see any reason to believe that is the case. The loss of pronounced canines, loss of muscle mass, shortened forelimbs, excess body fat etc of humans all indicate that men are more neotenous than females. 2. There are many of species where the males scarcely leave the larval stage, ranging from [angler fish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglerfish) to [wasps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig_wasp) to [barnacles](http://www.ilovezombie.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/fig023.jpg). 3. There are likewise many species where the female never fully leaves the larval stage, famously [bagworms](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2370/how-do-caterpillars-have-sex), but plenty of other insects as well. There are also jellyfish where the females remain forever in the [polyp](http://www.mesa.edu.au/cnidaria/images/jelly_lifecycle.jpg) stage of their lifecycle and the males swim around to find them. 4. Compared to the crap that other taxa get up to, tetrapods generally are very conservative. The degree of neoteny in humans is really just cosmetic. Of course, all vertebrates are stuck perpetually in our larval form. Thus we are all very highly neotenous. Within that neotenic state, the actual variation between specie is insignificant. You are looking at a butterfly that is stuck perpetually as a caterpillar and arguing over whether one with legs a micron shorter is more neotenous. It’s kind of meaningless because it’s swamped by the overall degree of neoteny. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/4 "2015-06-09T11:28:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > All domesticated species, including humans, tend to retain juvenile traits, both male and female. I’m not domesticated! Kayaker, happily divorced dude. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/5 "2015-06-09T13:21:36Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Of course, all vertebrates are stuck perpetually in our larval form. That implies that an ancestor of vertebrates had insect-like metamorphosis in their life cycle. Is that true, or did the lineage leading to vertebrates just never develop a multi-form life cycle? And even if true, you could just as well say that vertebrates hatch as adults. (But good examples of organisms with radical neoteny). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/6 "2015-06-09T13:28:43Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Are there species where the males are more neotenous than the females? Humans? Women develop breasts. Men begin life with everything we’re ever going to need (other than pubic hair and other things which are common to both genders.) ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/7 "2015-06-09T13:30:21Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m not domesticated! > > Kayaker, happily divorced dude. You’re just feral, then. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/8 "2015-06-09T13:31:50Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > You’re just feral, then. Actively avoiding TNR. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/9 "2015-06-09T13:38:24Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Do humans have the most neotenous females? > Are there species where the males are more neotenous than the females? > **Please note that I include behavior within neoteny.** Am I being oversensitive, or are any of the other women on this board feeling just a touch insulted by the implication here? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/10 "2015-06-09T15:50:43Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > That implies that an ancestor of vertebrates had insect-like metamorphosis in their life cycle. Is that true, or did the lineage leading to vertebrates just never develop a multi-form life cycle? Higher chordates resemble the tadpole-like larvae of tunicates. It has been proposed that they originated by neoteny of such larval stages. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/11 "2015-06-09T16:28:14Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Am I being oversensitive, or are any of the other women on this board feeling just a touch insulted by the implication here? :dubious: I’d very much like the OP to clarify exactly what he’s talking about. I also suspect my wish will not be fulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/12 "2015-06-09T16:40:15Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Actively avoiding TNR. TNR? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/13 "2015-06-09T16:51:23Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Am I being oversensitive, or are any of the other women on this board feeling just a touch insulted by the implication here? :dubious: Oh, we are with you, sister ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/14 "2015-06-09T16:55:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > TNR? It’s a TLA\*. \*Three Letter Acronym (sorry. Trap, Neuter, Release. Typically a feral cat thang)😃 ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/15 "2015-06-09T16:57:14Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Am I being oversensitive, or are any of the other women on this board feeling just a touch insulted by the implication here? :dubious: I can’t speak for women on this board, but that got a dubious look from me, too. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/16 "2015-06-09T17:00:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > It’s a TLA\*. > > \*Three Letter Acronym > > (sorry. Trap, Neuter, Release. Typically a feral cat thang)😃 Good one. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/17 "2015-06-09T17:09:27Z")
The whole concept of neoteny doesn’t make sense to me. If it is defined as “the persistence of juvenile traits into adulthood”, then what makes those traits “juvenile”, considering adults now have them too? It seems to me it’s a time game. If these traits were recently “juvenile-only” traits that adults lost, but now we’re beginning to see more of these traits last until adulthood, I can see that requiring a special term. But generations and centuries down the line, when these traits are common in adults, are they really juvenile traits anymore? Skimming Wikipedia, they describe it more as a slowing down of the aging process. In other words, the juvenile traits still go away, they just last longer into young adulthood than they used to. But that doesn’t jibe with calling lifetime traits “neotenous”, whether it’s decreased body hair on women or permanent larval stage in barnacles. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/18 "2015-06-09T17:14:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Higher chordates resemble the tadpole-like larvae of tunicates. It has been proposed that they originated by neoteny of such larval stages. Cool! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/19 "2015-06-09T17:23:21Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Am I being oversensitive, or are any of the other women on this board feeling just a touch insulted by the implication here? :dubious: Yep, feeling more than a touch insulted. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019/20 "2015-06-09T17:24:00Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The whole concept of neoteny doesn’t make sense to me. If it is defined as “the persistence of juvenile traits into adulthood”, then what makes those traits “juvenile”, considering adults now have them too? > > It seems to me it’s a time game. If these traits were recently “juvenile-only” traits that adults lost, but now we’re beginning to see more of these traits last until adulthood, I can see that requiring a special term. But generations and centuries down the line, when these traits are common in adults, are they really juvenile traits anymore? It indicates persistence of traits that were typical of juveniles _in ancestral forms_, as may be indicated by fossils or the developmental course of close relatives. It’s clearest in groups in which most species have larval forms, and metamorphose into very different adults. Some species may achieve breeding condition (and are just adults) while still in the typical juvenile form for the group. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-species-whose-females-are-more-neotenous-than-women/722019.md?page=2)