# Are there too many 'useless' people in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274 "2011-09-14T10:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/41 "2011-09-14T19:47:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There certainly _are_ useless people. The problem is that there’s no good definition for useless that won’t trap some useful people, and no good remedy for a liberal democracy that “solves” this problem without creating numerous new problems. I’m not even sure there actually are. I mean, there certainly are people who will be taking welfare checks all their lives, but in my limited experience while these people won’t hold any “official” jobs, they’ll always also be making money on the side, be it through criminal entreprises (e.g. slinging weed) or through unsanctioned labour, such as under-the-table landscaping, tarmacking drives, putting up drywall, painting over living rooms and the like. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who just sat on their arse all day, playing video games or watching TV with no source of income whatsoever besides the State. Welfare don’t buy steaks. More to the point, welfare don’t buy Xboxes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/42 "2011-09-14T19:57:24Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > What field are you in that it’s that hard to get employees? I, too, am desperately seeking the answer to this question. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/43 "2011-09-14T20:27:05Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > Ah yes, the wealth that was just sitting around for the taking, in the national wealth pile. Gold nuggets, strewn about the ground, and those filthy rich scooping up more than their share. > > On your second point – if mortgage owners had abided by their contractual obligations, and/or not entered into stupid obligations they couldn’t afford, much of the present economic mess would have been averted. Since the banks (presumably under leadership of high paid executives) are the only ones who actually received government aid in the mortgage crisis, wouldn’t that make them the stupid people who entered contracts they couldn’t afford? Wouldn’t that also make them the ones who suck more out of society than they put in? Poor people went in with nothing and came out with nothing, while banks got trillions of our tax dollars to save them from themselves. Socialism, indeed. Socialize the risks, privatize the profits. That’s what the wealthy want, and you’re willing to give it to them. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/44 "2011-09-14T20:34:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m not even sure there actually are. > I mean, there certainly are people who will be taking welfare checks all their lives, but in my limited experience while these people won’t hold any “official” jobs, they’ll always also be making money on the side, be it through criminal entreprises (e.g. slinging weed) or through unsanctioned labour, such as under-the-table landscaping, tarmacking drives, putting up drywall, painting over living rooms and the like. > I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who just sat on their arse all day, playing video games or watching TV with no source of income whatsoever besides the State. Welfare don’t buy steaks. More to the point, welfare don’t buy Xboxes. Ah but would you go so far as to say that people on welfare don’t eat steak or own XBoxes? I think that is the point the OP was trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/45 "2011-09-14T20:59:48Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > Well someone may be, but not me. Here in the UK there are families who have been on welfare for generations, I’m sure there are families like that in the US Well, not anymore - since the mid-1990’s there have been a lifetime limit of 5 years on welfare in the US. Well, OK, you can get foodstamps without a time limit, but no housing, monthly money, or anything of that sort indefinitely, not any more. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/46 "2011-09-14T21:01:40Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > If there are large numbers of people on the streets, poor through no fault of their own then that’s a problem I assume, not just for them but for society as a whole. Just how bad is it right now, how much poverty is there? Well, official government figures just released say 1 in 6 Americans are living below the official poverty level - but not even all of them are getting welfare. Some of them are working full time and are still that poor. Does that help at all? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/47 "2011-09-14T21:06:05Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > Are there no people it the US who have been brought up on welfare and who know no different? I know there is a limit to welfare, so how do people survive after their two years (or whatever it is) are up? Honestly, sometimes they _don’t_ survive. In other cases - they move into homeless shelters, or start engaging in illegal activities to simply obtain food and shelter. I do some of my work for a landlord. Any property of his that stands vacant for more than a few days is at risk of being broken into and stripped - they steal the plumbing, rip the copper wiring out of the walls, peel the aluminum siding off the side of the house, steal appliances, whatever, and sell them for scrap. So they can get a few dollars. That’s just one example of how people survive when kicked off the government rolls. Me, I’d rather have them on the dole and have less crime and vandalism, but what do I know? I’m just some softie. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/48 "2011-09-14T21:52:17Z")
[QUOTE=Kearsen] Ah but would you go so far as to say that people on welfare don’t eat steak or own XBoxes? I think that is the point the OP was trying to make. [/QUOTE] I would go so far as to say that if they do, it’s not on the State’s dime. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/49 "2011-09-14T22:53:02Z")
Factually speaking, almost no one lives off of the government who wouldn’t be considered to be acceptably so (retired, looking for work, severely handicapped, etc.) Also factually speaking, only about 2/3rds of anyone will earn enough to support themselves. The other 1/3rd are not technically living off of the government, but they will take more than they put in. > **[Libertarianism and Human Foibles](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/libertarianism-and-human-foibles/)** > > The self-made man is a very impressive fellow. He starts from nothing, works hard, works smart, and he comes out on top. Except that he didn’t. If he made his millions in the stock market, he… > **[The Minimum Wage](https://publius2point0.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/the-minimum-wage/)** > > For the sake of clarity, let’s say that the philosophy behind the minimum wage runs as such: A person who can find labor, works 40 hours a week, and produces something that sells well enough … ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/50 "2011-09-14T23:06:44Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > What field are you in that it’s that hard to get employees? > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > I, too, am desperately seeking the answer to this question. I work for a video game company. We have had open seats in our core engineering department that have gone unfilled since I started working here 3+ years ago, despite having a full time internal recruiter at various points in time. Are you really surprised that there are jobs available that require specialized skills that make it hard to find qualified candidates? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/51 "2011-09-14T23:20:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It’s a cheap trick to try to pretend to present yourself as the opposite of your real political beliefs. “Look at me, I’m a right wing conservative, and I’m starting to agree with people who say we should smash the state and put the means of production in the hands of the proletariat.” Who is doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/52 "2011-09-14T23:21:52Z")
Why, I just completed a degree in software engineering, with a concentration in game development. Do you pay moving expenses? Can I get a green card? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/53 "2011-09-14T23:25:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why, I just completed a degree in software engineering, with a concentration in game development. Do you pay moving expenses? Can I get a green card? I don’t know about a green card, but I know where you can get a pink slip. ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/54 "2011-09-14T23:33:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, not anymore - since the mid-1990’s there have been a lifetime limit of 5 years on welfare in the US. Well, OK, you can get foodstamps without a time limit, but no housing, monthly money, or anything of that sort indefinitely, not any more. Section 8 has no time limits. Not in Berkeley and Oakland, CA, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/55 "2011-09-15T00:04:32Z")
**HumanBear** – If such people exist, what do you propose to do with them? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/56 "2011-09-15T00:27:16Z")
I would say people who start threads like this qualify as “useless.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/57 "2011-09-15T00:55:12Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I would say people who start threads like this qualify as “useless.” Try to re-read the OP (and his repeated attempts at reformulating his questions) with a more positive view, and you’ll notice he isn’t the monster some of you are making him to be. Basically, he’s asking if there really are “social leeches” in the USA, if it’s really a significant problem, and if it is, what could be done to adress it. I don’t really see any indication of, for instance, him being a conservative pretending to be a liberal. I’d rather suspect he’s mostly convinced that the issue of people living like parasites in the USA is vastly overblown, and waiting for evidences of the contrary. He’s not saying that “useless people” are a significant problem in the USA, but that there are many people in the USA stating so. And asking for actual figures and evidences. I’m not sure why he’s taking so much flak. I guess his mistake was to use the word “useless”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/58 "2011-09-15T02:31:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I would say people who start threads like this qualify as “useless.” Back off. This is not The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/59 "2011-09-15T12:50:48Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > I work for a video game company. We have had open seats in our core engineering department that have gone unfilled since I started working here 3+ years ago, despite having a full time internal recruiter at various points in time. Are you really surprised that there are jobs available that require specialized skills that make it hard to find qualified candidates? I am. If your company cannot find engineers to fill positions, it is not due to a shortage of qualified candidates, it is because your company is not competitive in salary and benefits. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/60 "2011-09-15T13:33:37Z")
> [@HumanBear](#): > > 1. If you think there are too many ‘useless’ people then how would you go about reducing this amount if you were the President? Hmmm . . . Well, rising petroleum prices threaten to raise the price of petroleum-based fertilizers, which in turn would raise the prices of foodstuffs . . . But where to find an alternative source of fertilizer?! . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274.md?page=4)