# Are there too many 'useless' people in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274 "2011-09-14T10:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/121 "2016-10-27T20:19:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m glad someone gets it. The reason I don’t see eye to eye with the modern left is I doubt the sincerity of the political class that exploits the populace with ideas that sound compassionate with regards to first order effects. I don’t like the theocratic side of the right wing but in the modern era overbearing state power has been more damaging than overbearing popes and cardinals. I think eventually our great great grand children will be using this model or something similar when almost all the productivity in the world is performed by machines and there are very few human inputs. But I don’t see how you can pay for it right now. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/122 "2016-10-27T20:22:37Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Exactly. That’s why octopus is almost a communist. I think the term is post-modern-neo-Marxist. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/123 "2016-10-27T20:30:17Z")
Huh. I was a bit of a cunt back then. Then again, I still am. I suppose that’s OK ? ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/124 "2016-10-27T20:53:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Even if you are “guy with fucked up back who can’t hang drywall but can still do something productive” good luck getting hired - employers are going to choose the guy with the back that isn’t fucked up before the guy with the fucked up back. In no small part due to the extra costs of insuring the guy with the fucked up back (which is yet another argument for genuine universal health coverage). I’m the guy. Fucked my back up long ago, my employer knew it when they hired me. My employer pays 100% of my insurance, and I’m not a special case because I hadn’t had any medical treatment on my back for 18 months prior to employment (it was actually a lot longer than that, by a decade or so, but 18 months is what put it past pre-existing). My salary is about 300% what it was on the job where I fucked my back up - not counting benefits, and I don’t work overtime. We actually have a robot (as well as some CNC machines that can be programmed to do similar but different parts easily), but the vast majority of the work is still done by hand - too many one-off parts. Robots are great doing the same part over and over, that’s what ours does, but re-tooling them for an entirely different process is a PITA unless they have a menu of tasks in their repertoire. It can weld roofs to car frames day after day, for instance (we don’t build cars), and you can set it up to weld the roof on a different model next month, but setting it up to do roofs one day and chassis construction the next and bumpers the next isn’t where it’s at. But our guys can do just that, metaphorically. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/125 "2016-10-27T21:17:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Your last paragraph isn’t true. There is always room for more services or goods to be produced and consumed but price absolutely matters. Stuff can be made cheaply if the economy is producing at maximum productivity. Several million people working can build a lot of nice bridges and clean up the whole country. There’s work to be done. Look at Detroit. That city can use some tidying. I said all the work that “needs to be done”. There is always work that CAN be done, if anyone is willing to pay for the labor. Are you? How much are you willing to pay to have Detroit cleaned up, or nice new bridges? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/126 "2016-10-27T21:18:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The unique thing about American labor is that it is in America. Just like the unique thing about American Real estate is that it is in America. There is some labor that can only be performed in America at the moment. Construction comes to mind. A works program to rebuild roads and bridges might be worth looking into. Construction you say? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k74rb7xl3aY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k74rb7xl3aY) ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/127 "2016-10-27T21:19:45Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I said all the work that “needs to be done”. There is always work that CAN be done, if anyone is willing to pay for the labor. Are you? How much are you willing to pay to have Detroit cleaned up, or nice new bridges? Get rid of minimum wage and lets see what the market says. I guess the sticking point is need. What are needs really? ---
**Author:** ![HeXen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@HeXen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeXen)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/128 "2016-10-27T21:47:51Z")
Is mental illness considered to be lazy and entitled when they live off of the govt. and others? Many people that are not homeless but would otherwise be without some form of assistance from others have some form of undiagnosed mental illness. From depression to dependent personality disorder or other social disorders. Should we be so quick to judge others without knowing anything about them nor their lives? You cannot just flip your brain like a light switch and think differently so don’t expect people that cannot prioritize or suffer from anxiety, depression…etc to be able to magically flip a switch and become independent. It doesn’t work like that. If laziness is a choice for you, then you are likely to be independent. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/129 "2016-10-28T13:18:36Z")
And from I’ve seen in my experience, some “useless” people are simply terrified to go out in the world and do something useful. One woman I know actually got a job, then stood outside the building the first day, totally terrified of going in there. She just couldn’t do it. I do not know how to fix that problem. ---
**Author:** ![ZombieFatTongue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ce73a5/32.png) [@ZombieFatTongue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombieFatTongue)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/130 "2016-10-28T14:04:49Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/131 "2016-10-28T17:11:04Z")
A sociopathic AI whose goal was maximizing the GPD may euthanize the poor and elderly and irradiate states which are net consumers of federal money, though maybe there would be other factors. For example, poor people might serve as a warning to the working stiffs about keeping their nose to the grind stone. J.K. Rowling was a single mother on welfare before she wrote Harry Potter, which probably contributed something to the economy. There are many other rags to riches stories. Maybe the economy would be depressed because people are bummed out that the AI just killed grandma because she made too many hospital visits. > [@astorian](#): > > We are reaching a point at which MOST of us, however well educated, may become “useless.” Reminds me of the old quote, “what good is a newborn baby?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/132 "2016-10-28T17:34:30Z")
I think you dudes are right, Yes, we should put all these "useless’ people in a special place, let us mark them clearly with a Black Triangle. And if they work, they get to be free. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/133 "2016-10-29T04:13:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > A sociopathic AI whose goal was maximizing the GPD may euthanize the poor and elderly and irradiate states which are net consumers of federal money, though maybe there would be other factors. For example, poor people might serve as a warning to the working stiffs about keeping their nose to the grind stone. J.K. Rowling was a single mother on welfare before she wrote Harry Potter, which probably contributed something to the economy. There are many other rags to riches stories. Maybe the economy would be depressed because people are bummed out that the AI just killed grandma because she made too many hospital visits. > > Reminds me of the old quote, “what good is a newborn baby?” I think you conflated GDP and federal money ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/134 "2016-10-29T04:52:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think you dudes are right, Yes, we should put all these "useless’ people in a special place, let us mark them clearly with a Black Triangle. And if they work, they get to be free. What are you talking about? You don’t think it’s fair that people contribute to society as they can? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/135 "2016-10-29T23:05:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What are you talking about? You don’t think it’s fair that people contribute to society as they can? _Arbeit macht frei,_ right? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/136 "2016-10-30T04:23:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Arbeit macht frei,_ right? 😕 Octopus doesn’t read parseltongue. Write plainly and in English. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/137 "2016-10-30T04:31:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Arbeit macht frei,_ right? “Work sets you free, right?” > [@octopus](#): > > 😕 > > Octopus doesn’t read parseltongue. Write plainly and in English. Next time, do your own work. Don’t count on others to find a translator online. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/138 "2016-10-30T05:02:46Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > “Work sets you free, right?” > > Next time, do your own work. Don’t count on others to find a translator online. People don’t look up death camp phrases and imply you advocate them for no reason. I’m curious as to what DrDeth means precisely. Not that running coach can find google translate. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/139 "2016-10-30T10:28:41Z")
Godwin’s Law strikes again. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2016, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274/140 "2016-10-30T10:39:16Z")
Something we are missing here is the impact of automation. Unless there is a major civilisation collapse in the next hundred years, the vast majority of industries will need few employees. Are we to force people to do make-work tasks just to ‘contribute to society as best they can?’ There is a limit to the number of hand-thrown teapots we can use. It seems to me that both socialism and libertarianism struggle with the concept of abundance; both philosophies believe in the concept of ’ a fair day’s work for a fair day’s pay’, and both excoriate ‘non-contributors’; they just disagree on who the ‘non-contributors’ are. In a hundred years or so most people will be ‘non-contributors’- perhaps then we can get on with living our lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-too-many-useless-people-in-the-us/596274.md?page=8)