# Are there Trumpers who don't self-identify as Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2021, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560 "2021-01-26T23:36:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/21 "2021-01-27T13:49:43Z")
I don’t know why people doubt that Ivanka is now Jewish. It’s not like joining the Christian camp where you say the magic words and get dunked (or sprinkled, depending on sect). Conversion to Judaism requires study and commitment, it’s not done quickly or on a whim, particularly not a conversion under Orthodox Judaism which is the one she had. Apparently she’s been observant for 12 years now. That’s a bit more than lip service and a conversion of convenience. I suppose it’s the flip of referring to a devoted Christian as a “converted Jew” instead of a Christian, as if there’s some mystical barrier that prevents an actual conversion. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/22 "2021-01-27T14:29:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t know why people doubt that Ivanka is now Jewish. It’s not like joining the Christian camp where you say the magic words and get dunked (or sprinkled, depending on sect). It can be if you make a big enough donation. Do you seriously think that conversion is the same for people a rich as the Kushners? It’s no different than anything else. If you have money, the rules don’t need to apply - and that includes God’s rules ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/23 "2021-01-27T14:45:18Z")
Two of my best friends are Trumpers and not religious at all. The one seems to worship at the altar of Contrarianism - I’m pretty sure he likes Trump cuz no one else around him does, the same way he likes kale and smooth jazz. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/24 "2021-01-27T15:25:34Z")
That description reminds me so much of this sketch: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6fA9sJ3LBwg/hqdefault.jpg ""TV" is a nickname and nicknames are for friends, and television is no friend of mine.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fA9sJ3LBwg) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_McQwark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@Steve\_McQwark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_McQwark)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/25 "2021-01-27T15:27:14Z")
Minutes after reading about your friend, I saw this “Non Sequitur” comic strip. The serendipity was too good to pass up. > **[Non Sequitur by Wiley Miller for January 27, 2021 | GoComics.com](https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2021/01/27?ct=v&cti=1388374)** > > January 27, 2021 ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/26 "2021-01-27T15:37:10Z")
You know as soon as I typed that I thought “wow that makes him seem like a total hipster!” but he’s very far from that. He’s just an over-confident buffoon who goes around not thinking much about anything until one day he “discovers” something and suddenly it’s his favorite thing ever and he’s an expert at it. It was all just annoying and quirky for years until Trump came along. It’s painful to watch. We’ve been best friends for over 25 years. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/27 "2021-01-27T15:41:01Z")
I totally get the contrarian impulse. It’s why I don’t go to demonstrations - put me in the middle of a crowd of people who agree with me, and at some point I’ll turn on them. I can’t help it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/28 "2021-01-27T16:13:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > I don’t know why people doubt that Ivanka is now Jewish. It’s not like joining the Christian camp where you say the magic words and get dunked (or sprinkled, depending on sect). > > It can be if you make a big enough donation. > > Do you seriously think that conversion is the same for people a rich as the Kushners? It’s no different than anything else. If you have money, the rules don’t need to apply - and that includes God’s rules Do you think it’s impossible for someone wealthy to make a genuine conversion? You seem to doubt her conversion because 1) she’s a Trump and 2) she’s rich. On the other hand, it seems that she has been observant as an Orthodox Jew for 12 years. I suppose it’s possible for it all to be a sham, but most people don’t have the self-discipline to keep up a facade that long, and if she does have that level of self-discipline she sure as hell didn’t get it from daddy. Given that she converted in 2009, before daddy ran for President and because at such time I can’t see how becoming Jewish would hold any advantage for her, I’m not inclined to think it was all part of some master plan. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/29 "2021-01-27T22:54:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That QAnon shamon had a fuck-huge Mjölnir tattoo, for example. Is that what that was? I thought it was stupid when I thought it was the hilt of a sword that was tucked in his pants, like the" cool gangster" types that have a gun butt tattooed so it looks like it’s tucked in their pants. Thor’s hammer is even stupider. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/30 "2021-01-27T23:07:26Z")
There are tons of old Jews in Florida who love Trump. Nobody who has spent time around Florida should be at all surprised that the Jewish “Florida Man” and the Christian “Florida Man” are still the same breed. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/31 "2021-01-27T23:10:19Z")
She apparently [converted to marry Kushner.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Kushner#Personal_life). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/32 "2021-01-27T23:26:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Given that she converted in 2009, before daddy ran for President and because at such time I can’t see how becoming Jewish would hold any advantage for her, I’m not inclined to think it was all part of some master plan. Converting for your spouse-to-be - or for their family - is actually fairly common. Look, I’m not saying she’s lying, I just have no reason to believe she’s telling the truth. After all, she’s the member of two separate crime families. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/33 "2021-01-30T03:06:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You seem to doubt her conversion because 1) she’s a Trump and 2) she’s rich. Does anyone know whether she converted, and then later met her husband-- in other words, had already been Jewish when she married, after having converted, “on her own,” so to speak, or if she converted “for” her husband, so to speak. In my experience, solo conversions are usually sincere, lasting, and result in someone very observant, while the ones done just for marriage do not result in someone very observant, and do not outlast the marriage (whether it ends by divorce or death). It may appear to “work” during the marriage, but it is the born-Jewish partner doing all the work. There are exceptions both ways-- I’m speaking in generalities. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/34 "2021-01-30T04:27:59Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Does anyone know whether she converted, and then later met her husband-- in other words, had already been Jewish when she married, after having converted, “on her own,” so to speak, or if she converted “for” her husband, so to speak. [This biography seems to claim that she converted for her in-laws.](https://www.jpost.com/omg/trump-was-baffled-by-ivankas-conversion-to-judaism-book-claims-584030) > [@](#): > > “Why should my daughter convert to marry anyone?” Ward quoted Trump as saying to an associate. […] > > Ward wrote that Jared’s parents, Charles and Seryl, were extremely unhappy by the match when Jared and Ivanka first started dating in 2007, after meeting at the Prime Grill kosher restaurant in Manhattan. > > “Jared’s parents were horrified by the match,” Ward wrote. “Seryl and Charlie were dismayed at the idea of their son marrying outside the faith… Charlie and Seryl refused to even meet Ivanka,” and were a large factor in their three-month breakup. > > But Ivanka eventually agreed to convert to Judaism, and did so via an Orthodox rabbi, on Charlie Kushner’s terms. > > “Charlie wanted to test Ivanka’s devotion to his son and her future life,” Ward quoted a family friend as saying. “So he made her conversion as challenging as possible.” […] > > While Kushner’s parents learned to embrace Ivanka, things were much frostier with Karlie Kloss, the supermodel who married their younger son, Jared, last year. > > The night of the inauguration, Ward wrote, Charlie Kushner berated Josh for his relationship with Kloss: “Josh, we expect you to do the right thing. The person you are with is not the right person.” The Kushners, Ward said, were unhappy that Kloss was not Jewish, but also thought she was uneducated, unsophisticated and not in the family’s league. > > “For six years, they refused to even meet her,” Ward wrote. “Josh told Gary Cohn and others he was not allowed to bring Kloss to holiday family gatherings.” > > The author said that once Josh made it clear he planned to marry Kloss, his parents met her and she agreed to convert to Judaism. > > “A Kushner family member told me Seryl likely saw Josh’s marriage to Kloss as her biggest failure,” Ward wrote. “‘It was Seryl’s job to make sure the kids married the right people and perpetuated the stream, and obviously Ivanka and Karlie don’t match that.’” They sound nice. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/35 "2021-01-30T06:13:40Z")
One my questions to see how much I trusted her conversion would be how much her statements and actions align with the beliefs of the religion she converted to. This is not specific to Judaism—it’s also what I do when I consider if someone really became a Christian or not. For example, Donald Trump very clearly did not. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/36 "2021-01-30T09:42:51Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > There are exceptions both ways-- I’m speaking in generalities. I know what you mean, I’ve seen that, too. I could point to one of the women in my widow’s group who was introduced to Judaism when she met the man who would become her husband, converted, and after he passed away continued to be an observant Jew … but anecdote is not data and there are plenty of examples that go the other way. On the other hand, it seems that regardless of why she converted she herself seems to be observant in accord with Modern Orthodox. Meaning she and Jared observe a lot of rules but not all of them all of the time, and certainly not to the standard of the Ultra-Orthodox… but then no one but the Ultra-Orthodox do that. Given her in-laws seem to accept her now I view that as another indication it might have “taken” in a real sense. Would that survive the end of marriage? We won’t know unless/until that happens. And about those in-laws… > [@Kimstu](#): > > They sound nice. Yeah, well, there are bigoted Jewish people as well, what can I say? And Jared and Ivanka do seem to be two peas in a pod. Personally, I think they’re both awful people but they are enough alike to be bookends. > [@BigT](#): > > One my questions to see how much I trusted her conversion would be how much her statements and actions align with the beliefs of the religion she converted to. > > This is not specific to Judaism—it’s also what I do when I consider if someone really became a Christian or not. For example, Donald Trump very clearly did not. Ivanka observes the rules as much (and as little) as the typical Modern Orthodox… which is to say mostly but not entirely. Apparently she learned to cook so she could prepare Sabbath meals, although she and Jared have been spotted eating at non-kosher restaurants in DC - like most other Jews in the area because apparently there aren’t a lot of kosher options in the area. They also reportedly turn off phones/TV/internet on the Sabbath, don’t handle money or monetary transactions on the Sabbath, keep kosher in their home, and so on. Given the spotlight on Ivanka (a small one before daddy became president, a larger one afterward) I’d expect cheating to be spotted. I mean, she could be sneaking bacon and shrimp cocktails in the linen closet at home and secretly wearing underwear that is a mix of wool and linen but I sort of doubt it. She has never made a claim to observe every single rule and has publicly stated that they’re more observant than some and less so than others. So her behavior so far seems consistent with the other Jews in her sect and social circle. Until proven otherwise I lean towards accepting her conversion. You all are, of course, free to have other opinions. As for the Donald - he didn’t convert, he was raised Presbyterian so it really didn’t require any thought or effort on his part, it just sort of happened. Anyhow - any other Trumpists that aren’t Christian? And any that are neither Christian nor Jewish that are publicly known? (I’m assuming that Trump has fans among the White Nationalist branch of Norse/Asatru - at which point I hasten to add not everyone following those NeoPagan traditions are bigoted assholes, just some of them - but I doubt there are any well known to the public.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/37 "2021-01-30T10:28:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > One my questions to see how much I trusted her conversion would be how much her statements and actions align with the beliefs of the religion she converted to. > > This is not specific to Judaism—it’s also what I do when I consider if someone really became a Christian or not. For example, Donald Trump very clearly did not. Ivanka observes the rules as much (and as little) as the typical Modern Orthodox… which is to say mostly but not entirely. [/quote] Thank you for the info. It sounds like there are much more food–based restrictions than moral ones. The moral ones were where I thought she might not follow. > [@](#): > > As for the Donald - he didn’t convert, he was raised Presbyterian so it really didn’t require any thought or effort on his part, it just sort of happened. There was that one time he claimed that he had not ever asked God to forgiven him (claiming he’d never sinned). Under most definitions of Christianity I know of, that would make him not a Christian. There were memes going around claiming he had repented and become a Christian. My response was that he clearly hadn’t, since he didn’t adhere to any of the (mroal) requirements, (or, to put it the Christian way: lacked any of the signs of the Fruit of the Spirit). If he did convert, it was just for show or something he reneged on. I am aware that this sort of quick conversion process is not how it works in other religions. But it was thinking about why I don’t believe Donald is a Christian that made me question if Ivanka really converted or just did it for show to please her in-laws. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2021, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/38 "2021-01-30T20:12:46Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Thank you for the info. It sounds like there are much more food–based restrictions than moral ones. The moral ones were where I thought she might not follow. Well… she may not be following some of the moral ones, but the overlap between moral prescription for Jews and Christians is pretty large. I mean, both groups are monotheistic, ban murder, adultery, stealing, etc., the dietary laws are one of the areas where there actually is a marked difference. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/39 "2021-01-31T01:37:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There was that one time he claimed that he had not ever asked God to forgiven him (claiming he’d never sinned). Under most definitions of Christianity I know of, that would make him not a Christian. > > There were memes going around claiming he had repented and become a Christian. Yeah, but those were justificatory claims from the followers – AFAIK _ **he** _ did not at any point after that infamous quote actually make a manifestation of repenting and Coming To Jesus. And yes, claiming you have nothing for which to ask God for forgiveness would be heretical if you claim to be a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2021, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560/40 "2021-01-31T02:30:05Z")
In the headline I saw just today (Jan. 30): > **[Florida rabbi arrested in connection with deadly US Capitol riot](https://www.alternet.org/2021/01/rabbi-coup)** > > A rabbi in Florida is now the latest person of interest in connection with the deadly U.S. Capitol riots that erupted on Jan. 6 amid the Electoral College certification. According to WFLA-TV, the U.S. Department of Justice has arrested Michael... But it says he is the rabbi of a messianic congregation, so maybe we should consider it ambiguous if that counts as “self-identifying as Christian”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-trumpers-who-dont-self-identify-as-christian/931560.md?page=3)