# Are there two physical types in England? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 6, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382 "2004-09-06T20:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/41 "2004-09-07T01:07:12Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Peru has far more than three ethnic groups or physical types - there are a number of distinct European and Indian ethnic groups, as well as populations of African ancestry. And “mestizos” don’t really represent a distinct physical type either - they range from people who look nearly European to those who look pure Indian. I have a friend, a co-worker, who is from Peru. His telling pretty much agrees with what the website states. In fact, you repeat what the site says but call it “far more” than three groups! There _is_ that three percent “other ethnicity”. Are they who you refer too as “far more”? But yes, there are two _distinct_ physical types, whites and indians, with the mestizos being the “blending” of the two. They, the mestizos, are a “type” only in that they, as a group, are not exactly like the “pure” whites or the “pure” indians. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/42 "2004-09-07T01:19:19Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > You’re seeing what you want to see, I suspect - subjectively seizing upon convenient similarities and not noticing inconvenient differences. > > Let’s have a look at some more English faces (famous ones): > > Jack Davenport > [Ricky Gervais](http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00131/ricky_gervais_the_o_131612a.jpg) > [Lee Evans](http://www.project-equinox.de/dvd/pictures/cast/lee_evans.jpg) > [Jonathan Ross](http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39413000/jpg/_39413842_jon_ross.jpg) > [Nick Hancock](http://www.bgammon.freeserve.co.uk/nickhancockp.jpg) > [Paul Merton](http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/interact/images/myradfour/merton.jpg) > [Rowan Atkinson](http://www.comedycv.co.uk/rowanatkinson/2003-january-rowan-atkinson.jpg) > [John Cleese](http://getreligion.typepad.com/getreligion/cleese-thumb.jpg) > > You could try to group these into two sets by some sort of arbitrary criteria, but that’s all it would be; Rowan Atkinson has a broad face, but is also tall and angular; Does Jack Davenport look more like Jonathan Ross than John Cleese? Joh Cleese is tall, but with a round face? Is he more like Prince Charles than Paul Merton, who is also tall with a round face? No, now, let’s go back to Tim and Charles. _What_ “inconvenient differences”, other than what I mentioned? You are the one who first put them up for comparison. I’ll go look at your other comparisons in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/43 "2004-09-07T01:28:16Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I have a friend, a co-worker, who is from Peru. His telling pretty much agrees with what the website states. In fact, you repeat what the site says but call it “far more” than three groups! There _is_ that three percent “other ethnicity”. Are they who you refer too as “far more”? > But yes, there are two _distinct_ physical types, whites and indians, with the mestizos being the “blending” of the two. They, the mestizos, are a “type” only in that they, as a group, are not exactly like the “pure” whites or the “pure” indians. “Pure whites”? Racial mixing? This is coming across as the work of some race troll. **Mangeorge** , you’ve been here for years, you know better than this - what the hell is going on? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/44 "2004-09-07T01:30:06Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > No, now, let’s go back to Tim and Charles. _What_ “inconvenient differences”, other than what I mentioned? You are the one who first put them up for comparison. No, you compared them, in your OP. They were the very first names you mentioned! ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/45 "2004-09-07T01:37:39Z")
> [@violacrane](#): > > He being Prince Charles, who Polycarp convincingly demonstrated as being “50% Anglo-German, 25% Scottish, and 25% Danish”. Well I guess that is as English as any of us! Me, for example, I’m 12 1/2% Irish for sure, the rest is English with dollops of Scottish, Welsh and a rumoured soupcon of French. Oh and I look like a “typical” “English rose”, though I’m not sure which of your two categories that is – mesomorph perhaps? > > Sorry to join in the snarkiness but a little research along the lines of various suggestions here would have been advisable… This _is_ research. My most recent stop. And I _don’t_ have two categories. I’m asking if there are two categories. What’s a typical English Rose? All I get is pictures of flowers and a couple dogs. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/46 "2004-09-07T01:50:02Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > “Pure whites”? Racial mixing? This is coming across as the work of some race troll. **Mangeorge** , you’ve been here for years, you know better than this - what the hell is going on? This doesn’t really deserve a reply, but I don’t think direct attacks, backed by outrageous lies, are allowed here. “Race troll”, indeed. When you quote me, please leave punctuation (“pure” whites) as I put it. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/47 "2004-09-07T01:55:17Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > No, you compared them, in your OP. They were the very first names you mentioned! Man, you just _can’t_ get it right, can you? I suggest you try reading posts before you reply. The OP refers to Tim Henman and _Phil Collins_. Not Charles. Rolleyes time. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/48 "2004-09-07T02:09:15Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > This _is_ research. My most recent stop. And I _don’t_ have two categories. I’m asking if there are two categories. > What’s a typical English Rose? All I get is pictures of flowers and a couple dogs. It’s a flattering way of describing a common type of English colouring – hair: fair ie mousy, eyes: anything from blue to brown, skin: pale enough to show a blush prettily, not enough to burn too quickly in the British sun. ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/49 "2004-09-07T02:13:11Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I have a friend, a co-worker, who is from Peru. His telling pretty much agrees with what the website states. In fact, you repeat what the site says but call it “far more” than three groups! There _is_ that three percent “other ethnicity”. Are they who you refer too as “far more”? > But yes, there are two _distinct_ physical types, whites and indians, with the mestizos being the “blending” of the two. They, the mestizos, are a “type” only in that they, as a group, are not exactly like the “pure” whites or the “pure” indians The Pacific Coast lowlands of Peru have a distinct Afro-mestizo group who look quite different than the others, and have retained a distinct musical tradition etc. Between them and the Japanese immigrant population I’m quite surprised to learn “other groups” comprise only 3%. In any event, there are very different Indian populations in the country who were all conquered by the Inca at some point, but probably still retain pretty different genotypical and phenotypical traits, Amazonia vs the highlands especially, thus I think “Indian” here is quite an overgeneralization. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/50 "2004-09-07T02:13:18Z")
> [@violacrane](#): > > It’s a flattering way of describing a common type of English colouring – hair: fair ie mousy, eyes: anything from blue to brown, skin: pale enough to show a blush prettily, not enough to burn too quickly in the British sun. Ah! Pre-MTV Dido. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/51 "2004-09-07T02:27:07Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I have a friend, a co-worker, who is from Peru. His telling pretty much agrees with what the website states. In fact, you repeat what the site says but call it “far more” than three groups! There _is_ that three percent “other ethnicity”. Are they who you refer too as “far more”? Surely you can’t have misunderstood my post that badly. If you have, there is really little point in further discussion with you. I said, quite clearly, that the Europeans (whites) represent several different ethnic types, at least to the same extent as the English do and probably more, and the Indians themselves represent a number of different ethnic types (popularly called tribes) - I personally can sometimes tell a Quechua from a Machiguenga and a Machigenga from a Yaminahua, though there’s a lot of overlap. The “three percent” are mostly Peruvians of African and Asian (Chinese and Japanese) ancestry, which further complicates the picture. > [@](#): > > But yes, there are two _distinct_ physical types, whites and indians, with the mestizos being the “blending” of the two. They, the mestizos, are a “type” only in that they, as a group, are not exactly like the “pure” whites or the “pure” indians. But of course when the mestizos make up a very large part of the population, and when they vary quite a bit themselves in appearance, one could hardly say that the _population_ is made up of two distinct physical types. The population is continuously variable, even though some _individuals_ may represent different physical types. ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/52 "2004-09-07T02:37:06Z")
> [@violacrane](#): > > It’s a flattering way of describing a common type of English colouring – hair: fair ie mousy, eyes: anything from blue to brown, skin: pale enough to show a blush prettily, not enough to burn too quickly in the British sun. Here’s a couple of nice examples [Zara phillips](http://www.newspics.co.uk/folio/210503-POC-332.jpg) [Keira Knightly (on right)](http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39290000/jpg/_39290405_orli_pa.jpg) And a couple more typical English folk: [Cliff Richard](http://www.wtvs.org/pressroom/cliffrichard/cliff.jpg) [Jade Goody](http://www.five.tv/media/image/4626397.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/53 "2004-09-07T02:44:04Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Ah! Pre-MTV Dido. 🙂 Could have saved myself the trouble of finding those image links if I’d seen this first 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/54 "2004-09-07T02:44:54Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > The Pacific Coast lowlands of Peru have a distinct Afro-mestizo group who look quite different than the others, and have retained a distinct musical tradition etc. Between them and the Japanese immigrant population I’m quite surprised to learn “other groups” comprise only 3%. In any event, there are very different Indian populations in the country who were all conquered by the Inca at some point, but probably still retain pretty different genotypical and phenotypical traits, Amazonia vs the highlands especially, thus I think “Indian” here is quite an overgeneralization. Andres, I think, would agree. He doesn’t call himself indian, but something else which I can’t recall. He’s from high in the mountains, his family is of the group who’s women (his grandmother, anyway) wear those bowler hats. He claims the white (mostly spanish) population run things, and pretty much lump all indian peoples together. I’ll ask about the mestizo folks. He has mentioned incan ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/55 "2004-09-07T02:50:44Z")
> [@violacrane](#): > > Could have saved myself the trouble of finding those image links if I’d seen this first 🙂 No, thanks for the trouble. **Cliff Richards** is still around? Wow! ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/56 "2004-09-07T02:57:41Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > > [@Atticus Finch](#): > > > > No, you compared them, in your OP. They were the very first names you mentioned! > > Man, you just _can’t_ get it right, can you? I suggest you try reading posts before you reply. > The OP refers to Tim Henman and _Phil Collins_. Not Charles. Rolleyes time. > :rolleyes: > [@mangeorge (in the OP)](#): > > …I was watching the US Open this morning and saw Tim Henman soundly whup that german guy, who’s name escapes me. Sorry, german guy. > Anyway, **Henman looks like** one of the taller, more head hair, slender types like **Prince Charles** , etc. Emphasis added. You are drawing a comparison between Tim Henman and Prince Charles. You also talk about Phil Collins, I never denied that, but the very first names you mentioned were Tim Henman and Prince Charles, as I said. Rolleyes yourself. And I’m **not** calling you a race troll. You’ve been around for ages, and you’ve never done anything like this, that I know of. As far as I can tell, you’re sincere in this current thread - no hidden motives. Nevertheless, these bizarre musings on “pure” whites and the possible _untermensch_\* status of Phil Collins and so on do not befit you. They’re the kind of thing that should be left to the race trolls that pop up from time to time. - Yes, I know you didn’t use this word. But that’s how I interpret your OP. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/57 "2004-09-07T03:20:33Z")
Now can we agree that those individuals who are taller and of lighter complection as a group are very likely to be of european descent, and that those individuals who are shorter and of darker complection as a group are very likely to be of indian descent? Don’t nitpick me here, please. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/58 "2004-09-07T03:20:48Z")
I think Phil would dig being called untermensch. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/59 "2004-09-07T03:38:19Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Emphasis added. You are drawing a comparison between Tim Henman and Prince Charles. You also talk about Phil Collins, I never denied that, but the very first names you mentioned were Tim Henman and Prince Charles, as I said. Rolleyes yourself. > > And I’m **not** calling you a race troll. You’ve been around for ages, and you’ve never done anything like this, that I know of. As far as I can tell, you’re sincere in this current thread - no hidden motives. Nevertheless, these bizarre musings on “pure” whites and the possible _untermensch_\* status of Phil Collins and so on do not befit you. They’re the kind of thing that should be left to the race trolls that pop up from time to time. > > - Yes, I know you didn’t use this word. But that’s how I interpret your OP. That was a comparison for similarities, not differences. But anyway, how do you get anything about less-than-human from my post? I made no comparison of worth. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382/60 "2004-09-07T03:50:13Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Now can we agree that those individuals who are taller and of lighter complection as a group are very likely to be of european descent, and that those individuals who are shorter and of darker complection as a group are very likely to be of indian descent? Don’t nitpick me here, please. So what’s your point? The two end points there are much much more distinct than any range of variation found among white people in England. The entire range of variation among English whites would be no greater than that found among Peruvians of mostly European heritage. There may possibly be a faint glimmer of an intelligent question somewhere in the OP - whether traces of different ancestral ethnic groups could be seen among the present day population of England - but it was asked so poorly that it’s difficult to tell _what_ you were trying to get at. (I’m still not entirely sure.) It certainly didn’t help to say that you conceived the idea based on a few random impressions you got from watching movies. And your further replies in the thread haven’t really helped much either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-two-physical-types-in-england/263382.md?page=4)