# Are there well accepted rules for writin' dialect? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278 "2024-06-24T21:29:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/21 "2024-06-25T03:23:57Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Elitist much? It makes sense for a news oriented style guide. Trying to capture the dialect in a quote seems like it could easily veer into editorializing. Which nuances should be captured and which should be ignored? @Briny_Deep gave a good example up-thread with “hospiddle” and how many of us down enunciate it properly. * * * For fiction, especially cozy mysteries, I agree notating dialects is often used to highlight working-class characters. However there are other fictional works where it is just used to highlight accents (e.g. Irish or Scottish). For example in Robert Louis Stevenson’s _Kidnapped_ the Scottish dialect is applied for non-working class characters. This use doesn’t seem derogatory. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/22 "2024-06-25T05:32:39Z")
> [@CaveMike](#): > > For example in Robert Louis Stevenson’s _Kidnapped_ the Scottish dialect is applied for non-working class characters. This use doesn’t seem derogatory. I think there’s a difference between writing dialect and writing accent. If the speaker uses certain words or grammatical structures, then you should write them as; but you should spell everything as properly as possible. For instance, you can certainly have a Scottish character says something like: “I dinna ken what to do about that.” But you shouldn’t write it as: “I dinna ken wha’ t’do aboot tha’.” See my point? Words like “dinna” or “ain’t” or yes, “fuck” are just vocabulary, and if a speaker used them, then you should write them. But everything should be spelled properly. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/23 "2024-06-25T05:43:07Z")
James Herriot books gave the Yorkshire farmers he encountered their accents in his writing. He lamented how hard it was for himself(he was Scottish)to grasp the meaning sometimes. I found it charming. Harper Lee had a very pleasant southern writing style. As did Pat Conroy. Not a thing wrong with it. People speak differently and people write what they hear. I like reading what a person talks like. Makes it real. To me ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/24 "2024-06-25T06:59:19Z")
Scots is an interesting example, because there is a written language called Scots, and it does closely resemble the kind of thing that an English writer might put down to try to represent their perception of a scottish accent and dialect; for example, this is a sentence from the Wikipedia page on Scots language (from the variant of the page written in that language): > Anglian spikkers wir weil staiblisht in sooth-eist Scotland bi tha 7t yeirhunder. In tha 13t yeirhunder Norman launainers an thair reteiners, speakin Northumbrian [Middil Inglis](https://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Inglis_leid), war bade tae cum an sattil bi tha King. (I should say that the recognition and development of the written form of Scots has not been without problems - a huge number of Wikipedia pages written in the language turned out to have been [authored by an impostor](https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/26/scots_wikipedia_fake/), and just formed in the style that is being discussed in this thread, rather than being genuine examples of the language). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/25 "2024-06-25T08:20:58Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > > > The Associated Press stylebook strenuously warns of using dialect even in a direct quote. “Quoting dialect, unless used carefully, implies substandard or illiterate usage.” ⁢ > > Elitist much? > > The AP that is, not @Kent_Clark. ⁢ I’d say it’s the opposite. “Quoting dialect” generally means spelling words differently because the person says them differently. Not using the standard spelling implies that the speaker is pronouncing those words “wrong.” Consider the two quotes: “I’m thinkin’ a-goin’ to th’ store” vs. “I’m thinking of going to the store.” (And, BTW, both quotes could be of someone in California or most other places in the US. It’s not at all uncommon for those letters to be dropped in all General American speech, not just Southern. But the first version sure “sounds” Southern in my mind’s ear.) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/26 "2024-06-25T08:52:55Z")
As for the OP: I’ve primarily seen it spelled “cracklin” and “cracklins.” It’s what’s usually on the bags. I honestly didn’t even think of it being “crackling” with the g omitted. And I’d probably just avoid the dialectical spellings for -ings nouns that drop the g. For example, I’d just write “happenings.” ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/27 "2024-06-25T12:04:52Z")
With all the talk of writing dialects and Scottish, I was reminded of **[Midnight Diner: Tokyo Stories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_Diner_(Japanese_TV_series))**, a Japanese TV series set mostly in tiny diner in downtown Tokyo. Not being terribly fluent in Japanese, I rely on the English subtitles, and was quite surprised during one episode when a new character’s words were translated into Scottish: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MidnightDiner/comments/nsp731/got\_the\_midnight\_diner\_movie\_on\_bluray\_was/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MidnightDiner/comments/nsp731/got_the_midnight_diner_movie_on_bluray_was/) My wife (Japanese) said that this particular character’s Japanese dialect and pronunciation outed her as someone from out in the countryside, and apparently rendering her English subtitles as Scottish was their way of conveying that to English-speaking viewers. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/28 "2024-06-25T17:48:20Z")
Thanks for all the replies. I agree with those who mentioned using a little bit of phonetic dialect to illustrate a character and then returning to standard spelling. If you can write one of the most important books of all time then feel free to go whole hog with the phonetics like Twain did. But his later lower quality sequels to Huck Finn were not improved by the style. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/29 "2024-06-25T19:40:43Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > The Associated Press stylebook strenuously warns of using dialect even in a direct quote. “Quoting dialect, unless used carefully, implies substandard or illiterate usage.” They are almost calling Mark Twain’s stuff “substandard or illiterate usage”. But I did like the way Rex Stout did it- a few quotes, then explain why you are going to stop, then standard english. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I agree with those who mentioned using a little bit of phonetic dialect to illustrate a character and then returning to standard spelling. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/30 "2024-06-25T19:50:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They are almost calling Mark Twain’s stuff “substandard or illiterate usage”. No, because AP does not publish novels. Their style guide applies to news stories, where if a southerner, black person, or other ethnic person were quoted in dialect, many readers would make an inference regarding the person’s class, intelligence, or literacy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/31 "2024-06-25T19:58:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Consider the two quotes: “I’m thinkin’ a-goin’ to th’ store” vs. “I’m thinking of going to the store.” Dialect includes differences of sentence structure too though - grammar and nonstandard words. If someone says ‘I best go down the store, bettn’t I?’, do you just correct the spelling? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/32 "2024-06-25T20:00:15Z")
And Twain was illustrating “substandard or illiterate usage”. Huck and Jim were both poor and poorly-educated, and it showed. A major theme of the book was that they were good people despite their lack of education. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/33 "2024-06-25T20:20:50Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > Consider the two quotes: “I’m thinkin’ a-goin’ to th’ store” vs. “I’m thinking of going to the store.” ⁢ > > Dialect includes differences of sentence structure too though - grammar and nonstandard words. If someone says ‘I best go down the store, bettn’t I?’, do you just correct the spelling? ⁢ That does make it difficult. The first part, I don’t think people would mind if it was written “I’d best go down to the store.” But I don’t know how they’d pull off using “bettn’t”. That’s not just nonstandard, but a term that would probably not be understood at all. I suspect they might just avoid actually quoting it. Or, if they must, use a bracketed word like “[hadn’t] I?” Heck, the top result I found is your post about that term in 2016, with little else under it. Only when I looked up “bettern’t” did I find out it’s possibly a Yorkshire thing. And, yes, I know dialect includes word usage and syntax. Generally speaking, my understanding is that you keep the words, but may tweak the syntax same as you would for standard speakers. Hence why I say “I’d” and “the store.” ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/34 "2024-06-25T20:54:55Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Elitist much? > > The AP that is, not @Kent_Clark. The late Sen. Sam Ervin, known for his management of the Watergate hearings, was a master of the humble brag, “I’m just a simple country lawyer.” Except that in person (I heard him at a banquet) it sounded like, “Ahhm jus ta simpull cawntree layer.” And let’s not forget this thread, from just five weeks ago. Among the many statements that got the OP banned for trolling was this beauty. > 90% of stereotypes exist for a reason, I.e. have at least a grain of truth to them (if not, in certain rare cases, much more than a grain), and the stereotype of Southerners (especially Far South/Deep South) being uneducated, close-minded, more-likely-to-believe-in-invisible-God/angels-than-in-microscopic-Covid-bacteria, violent, unimaginative, disdainful of all weird/mind-blowing ideas like evolution or relativity or superhero comics, crooked, xenophobic, and just plain _nasty/rude_ - well, let me tell you, I’ve been to prisons out in Appalachia, and the guards were all those things and more, and there are plenty of other Southerners I’ve encountered, some of whom were nice/laid back/or even fun to party with but many of whom are just as bad as any stereotype. The AP fights that kind of “elitist” stereotype by avoiding dialect. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/35 "2024-06-26T05:51:49Z")
I think it’s a fairly delicate line to tread. On the one hand, trying to phonetically represent what a person sounds like, can be demeaning. On the other hand, correcting what they said to conform to some norm, including adding words they didn’t actually utter, could be patronising. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/36 "2024-06-26T05:57:51Z")
Spoken dialects I find acceptable. When characters write notes, letters, instructions etc. in that same dialect I want to scream. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/37 "2024-06-26T09:24:33Z")
I think the solution is to accurately transcribe the vocabulary and grammar they use, but not to attempt to transcribe their pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/38 "2024-06-26T18:59:16Z")
Depending on the application, it might be better not to quote them at all and just write ‘John expressed a desire to go shopping’ ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/39 "2024-06-27T08:57:24Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Except that in person (I heard him at a banquet) it sounded like, “Ahhm jus ta simpull cawntree layer.” That sounds like a perfectly legitimate way to pronounce those words - no better and no worse than any other way. There’s no need to change their spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278/40 "2024-06-27T09:00:41Z")
(Note: I’m agreeing with you). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-there-well-accepted-rules-for-writin-dialect/1003278.md?page=3)