# Are These Cat Breeder's Conditions Enforceable in Ontario? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 20, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887 "2018-03-20T14:24:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/41 "2018-03-22T12:51:39Z")
Forgive my ignorance but then how does one become a breeder of pure-bred animals? Hope to stumble upon a pair in the wild? Sounds as if all existing pure-bred breeders can form a cabal in which they refuse to ever allow anyone to buy an animal for breeding thus cornering the market. I have great trouble with monopolies. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/42 "2018-03-22T14:19:49Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Since cats cannot reproduce asexually, there’s no real parallel. Asexual reproduction creates an exact duplicate of the original organism on the genetic level, so there’s a reason why patent or copyright law could apply. Sexual reproduction most emphatically does not. It’s more like buying a tool that you use to create something else. [Cats can be cloned.](https://viagenpets.com/cat-cloning/) ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/43 "2018-03-22T15:24:38Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Forgive my ignorance but then how does one become a breeder of pure-bred animals? Hope to stumble upon a pair in the wild? Sounds as if all existing pure-bred breeders can form a cabal in which they refuse to ever allow anyone to buy an animal for breeding thus cornering the market. I have great trouble with monopolies. You become a breeder by befriending other breeders and indicating your willingness to adhere to the rules. You learn about cat/dog showing and you participate in the breed societies and you study your breed standards and you register your cattery/kennel. Display good intentions and current breeders will sell you breeding stock, at appropriate prices and without spay/neuter contracts. Again, if you’re not interested or disapprove of this model, don’t buy a purebred animal. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/44 "2018-03-22T16:22:16Z")
> [@Infovore](#): > > All I’m referring to is my personal experience. And I’m referring to the literal terms of the contract. Like I said before and you ignored, if someone insists that I sign a contract, I look at the terms of the contract, I don’t hope and pray that they decide to do something other than what they put in the contract. If the breeder wanted a different set of conditions, they could put those in the contract. > [@](#): > > but I find the “breeding is bad period full stop and everything breeders do is for their own selfish personal gain” mentality to be frustrating. Not sure why you’re posting that in response to me; I never made any such claim, and I explicitly stated my opposition to adoption contracts with the same terms, so there’s no actual reason to conclude that I hold any such position about breeders. Like I’ve already said, I object to the contract terms as they mean to me that I wouldn’t actually own my pet and would not have control over what happens to them if I could not keep them any more, the contract gives the control entirely to a third party. Trusting that people will ignore the terms of a contract they wrote and act in the way that you want in spite of what they put in writing is just not sensible, it doesn’t matter what thier profession is. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/45 "2018-03-22T18:13:59Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > You become a breeder by befriending other breeders and indicating your willingness to adhere to the rules. You learn about cat/dog showing and you participate in the breed societies and you study your breed standards and you register your cattery/kennel. Display good intentions and current breeders will sell you breeding stock, at appropriate prices and without spay/neuter contracts. > > Again, if you’re not interested or disapprove of this model, don’t buy a purebred animal. Again, this sounds like a cartel. I agree that a breeder should follow certain rules but it still smells like “if we don’t like you, you can’t come in”. Not sure how this can be allowed. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/46 "2018-03-22T19:22:14Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Again, this sounds like a cartel. I agree that a breeder should follow certain rules but it still smells like “if we don’t like you, you can’t come in”. Not sure how this can be allowed. Allowed by whom? ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/47 "2018-03-22T21:25:07Z")
Here’s a link to [a specialty cat rescue organisation](http://www.purebredcatrescue.org/) that can fulfill many of your needs while also giving a good home to an orphan. Some groups have a couple or more similar restrictions, but are often recommended rather than deal-breakers. The search can be long and tedious, but it’s a good place to start. The Obamas did the same with their dogs because of Malia’s allergies. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/48 "2018-03-22T21:43:32Z")
I’ve never heard of a cat that doesn’t shed. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > Since cats cannot reproduce asexually, there’s no real parallel. You mean I’ve been wasting my telling mine to “Go Fuck Himself”? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/49 "2018-03-22T21:43:42Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Again, this sounds like a cartel. I agree that a breeder should follow certain rules but it still smells like “if we don’t like you, you can’t come in”. Not sure how this can be allowed. There are plenty of cats and dogs to be had. You don’t have a right to a specific breed of one just because you want it. You have to agree to the rules of the people who control it. This is generally applicable to business. If you create some product, or buy the rights to do so from someone else, you’re not obligated to sell it to everyone. You can pick your customers and your terms. There are specific rules about how certain types of public accommodation businesses can’t use certain characteristics (race, gender, religion, etc.) because there’s a public interest in preventing the kind of broad societal problems that that sort of discrimination presents. There are lots of other restrictions and caveats, because the law is vast, but you’d have to show how this cartel of breeders actually violates a law, not just that they seem to exert a lot of control over who gets to buy their animals. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/50 "2018-03-23T17:12:58Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Again, this sounds like a cartel. I agree that a breeder should follow certain rules but it still smells like “if we don’t like you, you can’t come in”. Not sure how this can be allowed. Plainly, you’ve not ever owned a pure-bred animal. I can’t answer about other breeds\* but in the dog breed we favor, Salukis as I mentioned above, the number of _owners_ – never mind breeders – is small enough that we all know each other. A well-known kennel has a reputation to maintain, everyone is passionate about maintaining the health and conformation of the breed, and despite the high price of a puppy, I don’t know anyone who’s actually making money breeding and selling them; they’re just trying to recoup some the cost of the kennel. Furthermore, we do our very best to be sure that, cull or show quality, every puppy winds up in a good, loving home. Someone coming in with an attitude like yours would almost certainly be refused. If that makes us part of a cartel, so be it. Story time: Some twenty-five years ago we had a Saluki litter of eight in Carson City. We had someone in Idaho who was interested in getting her first Saluki and everything seemed all right to the point of taking a $300 deposit from her for pick dog. Then things started getting weird. She wanted to us guarantee that he would become a Champion. Well, at five weeks you can’t tell whether a puppy’s final quality is high enough to earn that Ch or not. Furthermore, we have no idea whether a novice would have the means or skills it takes to campaign a dog, even if he _was_ champion quality. Then we found out he would be spending most of the day, when she was at work, in a crate. This will not do; Salukis love to run and would be really unhappy being cooped up for even eight hours a day. We have a half-acre for our two and wish it was a full acre. There were a couple other items I don’t remember and I was telling **DesertRoomie** to cancel the sale. She really needed the money, though, and corresponded with the “cartel” in the Bay Area (there aren’t many Saluki breeders in Nevada). Their unanimous advice was to _run away, fast_ so she canceled the sale and refunded the deposit with a certified letter (thank God). The woman wrote a tearful letter about how she sits, looking at the leash and toys she’d gotten for him and just _knew_ we had killed him rather than sell him to her. We didn’t answer and the puppy went to someone else for about 2/3s of the original attempt. Then about a month later we got a call from the sheriff’s department in town saying she was accusing us of fraud and asking for our side. We told the deputy the circumstances and said we had the cancellation letter’s delivery receipt but she had yet to cash the check. The deputy said that was fine and we never heard anything else from them. After another month had passed, we got a call from an FBI agent in Boise. Same story, same explanation, then the agent said, “Wait, this was \ in \?” “Yeah.” “It’s coming back to me, now,” and went on to say that she ran Greyhound rescue out of her house. His brother in Denver had gotten one from her and he thought they were pretty neat so he asked the brother her particulars so he could get one, too. Brother recommended he get one somewhere else. “She’s… quite…” “You can’t say it, but I can. ‘A piece of work.’” he laughed and that was the end of that. I’d be willing to bet, **BwanaBob** , that she considered us part of an evil cartel. Tough shit. \*I’m looking at _you_, [GSD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Shepherd#Health). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/51 "2018-03-23T18:25:23Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > If that’s the way the law looks at a cat, I’m pretty sure I would have heard about it before now. It’s not possible to copyright a genetically engineered organism in Canada, so how can it be possible to exercise (effective) copyright over a selectively bred one? Even if it were possible to copyright an organism, this would make the many of the contract terms listed by the OP redundant; there would be no need for the buyer to explicitly agree to refrain from activities that the law already states to be illegal. That’s what I’m saying; they’re using contract terms to accomplish what the background law does not provide, to achieve something analogous to a license agreement for the cat’s pure breeding. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/52 "2018-03-23T18:58:28Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > . . . > A friend of mine bought a Russian Blue kittycat who was breeding stock, but SHE was not allowed to breed him. Her contract called her a co-owner and said she would bring him back to the breeder for the purpose of breeding him to a female cat selected by the breeder, but she would not otherwise let this cat reproduce, and then when the cat was 3 or 4, he would be neutered and at that point she would be his owner. (Breeders don’t mind if you “own” the pet instead of “adopting” it; rescues call it “adoption.”) Your friend purchased the pet, but not the stud rights. Stud rights for a Champion are expensive. My Dad kept Champion dogs and studded them out for $1-2k per litter. He is one of the few people I know who made money off of dog breeding. With rare cat breeds and champion horses it can be even higher. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/53 "2018-03-24T06:51:32Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Don’t buy at all, there’s a reason this is being outlawed in many places. Adopt from a shelter. I’ve started looking into getting another cat. Many shelters are now charging over $100, and I’ve seen as high as $150 adoption fee. Don’t tell me they aren’t selling their cats. Even Craigslist listings often want $75+ “rehoming fee”. In addition, many of the shelter adoption contracts have much of the same stipulations as the OPs purchase contract. I pinkie swear my cat will never leave the house, except to visit the vet. I will not declaw the cat. If the cat is not neutered/spayed when I get them, I will have that done. I will not rehome the pet, without permission of the shelter. The shelter may, at any time they chose, stop by to inspect my house and the cat. No wonder animals spend so long in shelters. It’s almost impossible to adopt them some times. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/54 "2018-03-24T21:15:06Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > … In addition, many of the shelter adoption contracts have much of the same stipulations as the OPs purchase contract… One of the conditions for a shelter cat I adopted was that I promised not to eat her. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/55 "2018-03-24T21:24:22Z")
Did you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/56 "2018-03-24T22:21:08Z")
In many cases, the adoption fee is far, far less than the money the shelter has paid to veterinarians for things like getting the pet altered (can run about $100-150), blood tests, initial shots, dental work, and a lot of other medical things that you’d have to take care of if it hadn’t already been taken care of by the shelter. And then there’s the money for the facility, food, and other care. Shelter adoption fees can be a real bargain compared to the adopter taking care of all that themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/57 "2018-03-24T22:28:18Z")
**Shodan** , no. I’ve been able to resist the temptation for 14 years now. But her? Anything edible is fair game. She may be a cat, but she eats like a horse. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/58 "2018-03-24T22:48:03Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > I’ve started looking into getting another cat. Many shelters are now charging over $100, and I’ve seen as high as $150 adoption fee. Don’t tell me they aren’t selling their cats. Even Craigslist listings often want $75+ “rehoming fee”. In addition, many of the shelter adoption contracts have much of the same stipulations as the OPs purchase contract. I pinkie swear my cat will never leave the house, except to visit the vet. I will not declaw the cat. If the cat is not neutered/spayed when I get them, I will have that done. I will not rehome the pet, without permission of the shelter. The shelter may, at any time they chose, stop by to inspect my house and the cat. > > No wonder animals spend so long in shelters. It’s almost impossible to adopt them some times. I doubt those fees even recoup what a shelter has spent on a cat for adoption, I don’t begrudge them and wouldn’t say they are selling their animals the way a breeder is. Frankly, if $75-100 for a cat seems steep then you shouldn’t get a cat. The first time you take it to a vet will cost you that much at least. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/59 "2018-03-25T05:18:16Z")
> [@araminty](#): > > You become a breeder by befriending other breeders and indicating your willingness to adhere to the rules. You learn about cat/dog showing and you participate in the breed societies and you study your breed standards and you register your cattery/kennel. Display good intentions and current breeders will sell you breeding stock, at appropriate prices and without spay/neuter contracts. > > Again, if you’re not interested or disapprove of this model, don’t buy a purebred animal. > [@araminty](#): > > Allowed by whom? Allowed by government agencies charged with enforcement of whatever anti-trust statutes. Major League Baseball had to get an exemption. Are cat breeders not for-profit enterprises (which would be more likely to allow them to operate like a private club)? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887/60 "2018-03-26T19:53:55Z")
We have a purebred (with papers or whatever the term is) Pembroke Welsh Corgi. We paid a lot for her from one of you lot and agreed to have her spayed (and we did). Also, I have never had an interest in being a dog breeder. That said, the fact that you say if anyone had an interest that they have to impress you before you would deign to let them into your club, is really sickening. I could see a system of education and certification/licensing to be an animal breeder (like a veterinarian or lawyer) where you lose your license if you don’t follow statutes and could be arrested if you continued to practice. But you make it sound as if “we don’t like you, tough sh\*t”. You make me want to never buy from a breeder again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-cat-breeders-conditions-enforceable-in-ontario/810887.md?page=4)