# Are these phrases racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 4, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444 "2004-03-04T01:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/21 "2004-03-04T14:05:04Z")
> [@pcroughn](#): > > It’s similar to the word “Niggard” which means stingy. The word has no association with anything of african decent and come to us from Scandinavia. Despite this, people are up in arms over it. They get all hysterical and try to ban books. (I think the book in question is “The Great Gatsby”, but I’m not sure.) > > Gyp probably does come from gypsies. I’ve always used this word and never made the connection before. (There’s some of that ignorance again.) So should I stop? The word is common english and I don’t think anyone is complaining about it. I hear about “indian giver” and “that’s mighty white of you”, but I don’t hear much on gyp. Adding to your list - ‘welch’, as in “he welched on the deal”, is often misheard and mispronounced as _welshed_, causing unnecessary arguments. Googling, it appears that ‘gyp’ has two etymologies, “his shoulder gave him gyp” coming from ‘gee up’, while other meanings are a derogatory reference to Gypsies. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Frank\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/22 "2004-03-04T14:39:55Z")
I don’t think the “Chinese math” is racist because, IMHO, it is based on the way the numbers are written. [http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html](http://www.mandarintools.com/numbers.html) Take a look at the numbers 1, 2, and 10. They’re written as a -, =, and a +. Combining the Chinese lettering with math notation could get very confusing. 10 - 1 = 9 becomes + - - = n. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/23 "2004-03-04T14:44:51Z")
> [@Truth Seeker](#): > > I believe it makes reference to Rypsies,… Rypsies? As in “I’ve been rypped off”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/24 "2004-03-04T15:00:50Z")
Call me ignorant (and fight me if I am) but are there even still Gypsies wandering the land? What makes a Gypsie a Gypsie? Lifestyle? Nationality? And if there aren’t any Gypsies, who’s to be offended? For that matter, should we stop saying someone “bummed” a cigarette off of you, so that we don’t offend homeless-Americans? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/25 "2004-03-04T15:04:35Z")
> [@](#): > > And most Asians would be offended by your use of the word “oriental”. Yeah, and I’m offended by that. Perfectly good word and now everyone who uses it is suddenly a racist. Not all Asians are Oriental, after all. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/26 "2004-03-04T15:04:39Z")
> [@Max Carnage](#): > > Call me ignorant (and fight me if I am) but are there even still Gypsies wandering the land? What makes a Gypsie a Gypsie? Lifestyle? Nationality? And if there aren’t any Gypsies, who’s to be offended? > > For that matter, should we stop saying someone “bummed” a cigarette off of you, so that we don’t offend homeless-Americans? [Here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=241434) the answer to our question (with bonus rancor and vitriol). ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_the\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@Mojo\_the\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_the_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/27 "2004-03-04T15:35:45Z")
> [@Truth Seeker](#): > > Well, “culturalist,” anyway. I believe it makes reference to Gypsies, or Roma as they are politely referred to. N.B. There is no racist connotation in “Roma tomatoes.” The “Roma” in “Roma Tomatoes” refers to the city in Italy, not the people… ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/28 "2004-03-04T15:46:05Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Are these phrases considered racist? Is it in bad taste to use these terms in polite or casual conversation? _Call a spade a spade_ [QUOTE] [Oddly enough, I just asked this a couple weeks ago.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=239299) The answer appears to be no. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/29 "2004-03-04T15:56:47Z")
I wouldn’t really call any of those phrases racist. The first and last have nothing to do with specific groups, and the middle one (regarding Gypsies) isn’t about a race at all. If you are prepared to dispute that, are you also prepared to call the Germans a seperate race from the Russians? ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/30 "2004-03-04T16:08:18Z")
I have never heard of “chaotic as a Chinese fire drill.” Growing up, doing a Chinese fire drill meant everyone jumping out of the car at a red light, running circles around it, and then hopping back in. I suppose that’s pretty chaotic, but I never heard of the term used like that. Is the term “porch monkey” offensive? In college we would use it to describe any group of people (often times ourselves) who spent a lot of time on their porch. It never carried any negative connotations - more like the opposite, like a bunch of people monkeying around on their porch, having a good time. Then somebody told me that it was apparently a derogatory term toward black people. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/31 "2004-03-04T16:15:23Z")
> [@pcroughn](#): > > I, too, have heard the phrase as “Chinese Algebra”. I always thought it meant that something is very hard. Asians are often sterotyped as being better at math than non-asians. So it makes sense that the algebra taught and used in China would be more difficult to understand than the algebra we learn in the west. (not my idea, just an interpretation of the phrase) I think **MadScientistMatt** has it right. The actual phrase is “harder than Chinese algebra,” not “Chinese math.” Algebra, which substitutes letters for numbers, is hard enough; substituting Chinese letters would make it even more difficult. I suspect the phrase long predates the quite recent stereotype of Asians being better at math, which probably originated sometime after the increased immigration from China that began in the 1970s. Before that Chinese were stereotyped as laundry workers and restaurant owners, not as over-achieving science and math students. The phrase is clearly not racist in origin, it is merely referring to characteristics of the Chinese writing system. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/32 "2004-03-04T16:22:49Z")
> [@audiobottle](#): > > I have never heard of “chaotic as a Chinese fire drill.” Growing up, doing a Chinese fire drill meant everyone jumping out of the car at a red light, running circles around it, and then hopping back in. I suppose that’s pretty chaotic, but I never heard of the term used like that. That little game was called “Chinese,” I think, because of its confused and chaotic nature. However, I can’t recall hearing the adjective Chinese applied in that sense to any other activity. I always assumed the phrase was due to the large number of people and crowded conditions in China, so that a “Chinese fire drill” would necessarly be confused. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/33 "2004-03-04T16:54:58Z")
> [@seaworthy](#): > > As to the call a spade a spade, you could avoid sounding like a racist if you used the British phrasing- call a spade a bloody shovel. My friend’s dad was from England and he was quite fond of that phrase. Never heard of that version - where abouts was he from? > [@Derleth](#): > > …and the middle one (regarding Gypsies) isn’t about a race at all Yes it is. Roma Gypsies are a race. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/34 "2004-03-04T16:56:25Z")
> [@seaworthy](#): > > As to the call a spade a spade, you could avoid sounding like a racist if you used the British phrasing- call a spade a bloody shovel. My friend’s dad was from England and he was quite fond of that phrase. Never heard of that version - where abouts was he from? > [@Derleth](#): > > …and the middle one (regarding Gypsies) isn’t about a race at all. If you are prepared to dispute that, are you also prepared to call the Germans a seperate race from the Russians? Yes it is. Roma Gypsies are a race. I don’t understand your analogy at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/35 "2004-03-04T17:22:37Z")
The problem with Gypsy (apart from it being an externally applied term that is generally regarded as offensive\*) is that while it originally only applied to Romani people, it has now also been applied to other groups whose lifestyle is similar to the stereotyped image of Romani people. Definition time, from [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > 1. A member of a people that arrived in Europe in migrations from northern India around the 14th century, now also living in North America and Australia. Many Gypsy groups have preserved elements of their traditional culture, including an itinerant existence and the Romany language. > > 2. See Romany. > > 3. **gypsy** One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life. > > 4. A person who moves from place to place as required for employment, especially: > A part-time or temporary member of a college faculty. > A member of the chorus line in a theater production. Note the lack of capitalisation for definition 3. So, **G** ypsy = an ethnic group who, as such, get one of them there fancy proper nouns - **g** ypsy = someone who is nomadic. - For shits and giggles, go to the [Encarta dictionary](http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/dictionaryhome.aspx) and do a search on Gypsy. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/36 "2004-03-04T17:48:44Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Adding to your list - ‘welch’, as in “he welched on the deal”, is often misheard and mispronounced as _welshed_, causing unnecessary arguments. Misheard maybe, but not mispronounced. According to my dictionaries, welsh is the main usage. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/37 "2004-03-04T18:38:52Z")
I get the sense that ‘Chinese’ (as well as ‘Indian’) have often been used to imply a generic, strange, incomprehensible ‘other.’ (Remember the joke about the Chinese newspaper? Indian sunburns? etc) Really, jumping out of your car at a stoplight and switching seats doesn’t have much at all to do with anything Chinese, does it? And when people (especially Western people) appropriate other people’s cultures (or even the names of their cultures) for their own utterly irrelevant purposes (eg many Disney movies), it bugs me. I wouldn’t call it ‘offensive’ or ‘racist’ exactly, just indicative that we don’t quite think of ‘them’ as equals. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/38 "2004-03-04T18:44:35Z")
> [@](#): > > “that’s mighty white of you” What’s interesting to me is that I’ve only ever heard this phrase used by white people, and only directed at white people. It’s always used sarcastically, also. Generally, the phrase is used when a person does something for another, or gives something to another, and expects credit beyond what is warranted. The desired credit is usually unwarranted because the deed was something that should have been done simply out of common courtesy. For example, a man expecting “benefits” from his wife simply because he finally took out the trash. I’ve also heard it used in reference to “Boy Scout helping old ladies across the street whether they want to go or not” scenarios. In other words, performing gratuitous good deeds when those good deeds are neither necessary nor desired. Or performing a good deed that turns out to be detrimental, and being oblivious to that detriment. Another example would be if my friend, Bill, loans me a hundred bucks because I’m short on my rent, and when we’re together with a group of friends, he loudly (so that everybody can hear and be impressed) tells me to not worry about paying him back. Someone in the group might tell him, “That’s mighty white of you, Bill.” It would be a subtle dig at him for publicly calling attention to my state of indebtedness. If anything, the phrase is something of an acknowledgement that white people have been, at times, somewhat underhanded and condescending in their dealings with other races. It’s a way of telling somebody that they’re not as cool and superior as they think they are. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/39 "2004-03-04T19:08:51Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > The problem with Gypsy (apart from it being an externally applied term that is generally regarded as offensive\*) is that while it originally only applied to Romani people, it has now also been applied to other groups whose lifestyle is similar to the stereotyped image of Romani people. > > … > > So, **G** ypsy = an ethnic group who, as such, get one of them there fancy proper nouns - **g** ypsy = someone who is nomadic. > > - For shits and giggles, go to the [Encarta dictionary](http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/dictionaryhome.aspx) and do a search on Gypsy. The use of Gypsy (capitalised) seems to be accepted by the UK government, including the Commission for Racial Equality: [http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmodpm/751/751w05.htm](http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmodpm/751/751w05.htm) [http://www.cre.gov.uk/media/guidetj.html](http://www.cre.gov.uk/media/guidetj.html) It seems to me that, again talking about the UK, the acceptable usage is with the word ‘traveller’ denoting the whole group of people living nomadically (Irish travellers, new age travellers, nomadic Roma etc), and with both Gypsy and Romany applying to racial groupings, whether nomadic or settled. I certainly don’t rely on Encarta to define acceptable and meaningful used of ethnic and racial descriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/40 "2004-03-04T19:30:15Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I certainly don’t rely on Encarta to define acceptable and meaningful used of ethnic and racial descriptions. _psst_ I’m on your side. I just thought it was kinda cool that it’s the first dictionary to note the word Gypsy’s offensiveness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444.md?page=3)