# Are these phrases racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 4, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444 "2004-03-04T01:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/41 "2004-03-04T19:56:49Z")
RE: “Mighty White of You” I always thought it was “mighty wide of you,” as in “mighty large of you.” Perhaps I’ve just been hearing what I want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/42 "2004-03-04T20:17:03Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Adding to your list - ‘welch’, as in “he welched on the deal”, is often misheard and mispronounced as _welshed_, causing unnecessary arguments. Welch and welsh are both derogatory, and refer to the presumed behaviour of people from Wales. Welch is an obsolete spelling, still used in the title of the Royal Welch Fusiliers regiment but not often elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![DeVena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dec6dc/32.png) [@DeVena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeVena)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/43 "2004-03-04T20:44:34Z")
> [@audiobottle](#): > > Is the term “porch monkey” offensive? In college we would use it to describe any group of people (often times ourselves) who spent a lot of time on their porch. It never carried any negative connotations - more like the opposite, like a bunch of people monkeying around on their porch, having a good time. Then somebody told me that it was apparently a derogatory term toward black people. Porch monkey (and it’s variation yard ape) and pickaninny are all derogatory terms for black (or African-American) children. These terms are racist and are considered highly offensive in the South. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@Stan\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/44 "2004-03-04T20:55:57Z")
a slight modification of # 1 appears as a lyric on the song “Wordz of Wizdom” by 3rd Bass: **Heart as, hard as, Chinese arithmetic Avante garder, not a heretic Figure out a right rhyme, stick it in my cranium Pete Nice, elemental like uranium** AFAIK, it needn’t be always “algebra”, as heard other variations over the years. I agree with Sublight that many of you may simply be over- thinking the meaning behind the phrase. Personally, I doubt that it actually refers to the fact that letters stand for numbers in algebra- it just sounds harder. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/45 "2004-03-04T21:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Porch monkey (and it’s variation yard ape) Having lived my whole life in the Pacific Northwest, and having never heard either of those terms until this thread, I hope nobody would consider me racist for coining the term “booth apes” to refer to those people whose entire lives seem to revolve around sitting in a restaurant booth drinking coffee and bullshitting (mainly retired men and younger government employees). ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/46 "2004-03-04T23:01:41Z")
Man, I always thought I coined the term “porch monkeys” from my obsession with monkeys in general. I probably just heard it somewhere without knowing the context or the implied insult and thought it was funny. I mean, c’mon, it’s monkeys! Monkeys are always funny! I guess when I visit my parents in the south, though, I’ll have to be more careful with that word. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/47 "2004-03-04T23:30:50Z")
> [@Stan Doubt](#): > > a slight modification of # 1 appears as a lyric on the song “Wordz of Wizdom” by 3rd Bass: > > **Heart as, hard as, Chinese arithmetic > Avante garder, not a heretic > Figure out a right rhyme, stick it in my cranium > Pete Nice, elemental like uranium** > > AFAIK, it needn’t be always “algebra”, as heard other variations over the years. I agree with Sublight that many of you may simply be over- thinking the meaning behind the phrase. Personally, I doubt that it actually refers to the fact that letters stand for numbers in algebra- it just sounds harder. I first heard the phrase in Tom Waits’ [Pasties and a G-String](http://tom-waits.spb.ru/lyrics/smallcha_e.php3#Pasties_And_G_String), from the album _Small Change_ (1976): > [@](#): > > Crawling on her belly, and shaking like jelly, > And I’m getting harder than Chinese algebrassieres But Waits here is using “harder” to mean more than just intellectual difficulty. Personally, I would bet that the original form is “Chinese algebra,” based on the idea of using letters in formulas, and the other forms (mathematics, arithmetic) are corruptions or misrememberings of this. Where the heck is **samclem**? ---
**Author:** ![Mathochist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@Mathochist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mathochist)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/48 "2004-03-04T23:47:51Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Probably opening a can of worms here, but anyone heard the phrase: [as chaotic as a] Chinese fire drill? > > I did believe it’s racist, but then I went to China, and I believe now it is merely _culturist_. > > Many simple activities (such as lining up for a bus; getting off a plane; etc.) in China - cities especially - descend into total chaos and anarchy; I have never been unfortunate enough to have been in a fire drill in China, but I don’t doubt that it would be amongst the most chaotic human situations on earth. I was under the impression that “Chinese fire drill” was meant as an insult because in the activity everyone gets out of the car and runs around (as I’m sure anyone would were their car on fire) and then _get back inside_. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/49 "2004-03-05T00:48:17Z")
> [@seaworthy](#): > > As to the call a spade a spade, you could avoid sounding like a racist if you used the British phrasing- call a spade a bloody shovel. My friend’s dad was from England and he was quite fond of that phrase. Saying “call a spade a bloody shovel” seems to spoil the whole meaning of the phrase. 😕 [sup] **A rose by any other name is still a flower.** [/sup]] ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/50 "2004-03-05T00:51:17Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Welch and welsh are both derogatory, and refer to the presumed behaviour of people from Wales. Wow…that’s the first post-PC interpretation I’ve seen in the SDMB. ‘Welch’ means ‘to evade’, ‘Welsh’ means ‘Welsh’. Both have endless historical contexts which we’d all do well to ignore. And they have shared etymologies. But so what? Does anyone ever really confuse them? Taking every historical precedent possible, and finding every derogatory usage of every word, would make the English language unusable. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/51 "2004-03-05T01:13:36Z")
.why, this guy was so fat he had more chins than a Chinese phonebook… …sorry…ducks and runs… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/52 "2004-03-05T03:24:28Z")
‘As complicated as Chinese arithmetic’ was something that I always attributed to the use of an abacus. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Reader99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df788c/32.png) [@Reader99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reader99)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/53 "2004-03-05T03:50:32Z")
the first time i heard the term “yard monkey” (and i haven’t heard it or the variants very often) the speaker was referring to people who were loud, drunk and obnoxious at an outdoor concert. in context it referred to people who didn’t know how to behave in a public place. the speaker and everybody he was talking about were white. no racial implications were intended. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/54 "2004-03-05T11:09:52Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Wow…that’s the first post-PC interpretation I’ve seen in the SDMB. ‘Welch’ means ‘to evade’, ‘Welsh’ means ‘Welsh’. Both have endless historical contexts which we’d all do well to ignore. And they have shared etymologies. But so what? Does anyone ever really confuse them? Besides the dictionaries? I mentioned this before. Here’s [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=welsh), which quotes the Ame.Her.Dic., Webster’s, and Wordnet. [Welch](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=welch) is just listed as a variant on welsh. > [@](#): > > Taking every historical precedent possible, and finding every derogatory usage of every word, would make the English language unusable. That’s silly. oops ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/55 "2004-03-05T11:20:13Z")
> [@RM Mentock](#): > > Besides the dictionaries? I mentioned this before. Here’s [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=welsh), which quotes the Ame.Her.Dic., Webster’s, and Wordnet. [Welch](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=welch) is just listed as a variant on welsh. Looks like it’s considered interchangeable in _American_ English - and I’m astonished that they provide both pronunciations for both spellings. > [@](#): > > That’s silly. oops Why? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/56 "2004-03-05T11:28:33Z")
To advance on that…the Cambridge Dictionary gives “welch…(ALSO welsh) INFORMAL DISAPPROVING”, and “welsh (AVOID)…to welch”. Clearly they’re making the distinction between the two spellings to avoid the confusion. And yes, I know that ‘welch’ is also a historical variant spelling of ‘welsh’, but that’s separate. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/57 "2004-03-05T19:33:45Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > To advance on that…the Cambridge Dictionary gives “welch…(ALSO welsh) INFORMAL DISAPPROVING”, and “welsh (AVOID)…to welch”. Clearly they’re making the distinction between the two spellings to avoid the confusion. Perhaps. I don’t have a Cambridge dictionary handy. What do they say about the definitions of scotch and irish, as in the senses “to quell”, “to injure”, “to cut or score” (for scotch), and “fieriness of temper” (for irish)? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/58 "2004-03-05T20:09:33Z")
> **[Cambridge Dictionary | English Dictionary, Translations & Thesaurus](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/)** > > The most popular dictionary and thesaurus for learners of English. Meanings and definitions of words with pronunciations and translations. SCOTCH: - (of products) of or from Scotland; - a type of whisky … made in Scotland; - to prevent something from being believed or being done (slightly formal); Also listed: Scotch broth, Scotch egg, Scotch broth, Scotch mist, Scotch Tape, Scotch terrier. I’ve never heard of it meaning cut or score - maybe another American usage? A similar set of results for Irish (-American, Coffee etc.) ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/59 "2004-03-05T20:20:04Z")
Thanks for the link, but those are Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary entries, right? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444/60 "2004-03-06T04:47:19Z")
> [@Kal](#): > > - For shits and giggles, go to the [Encarta dictionary](http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/dictionaryhome.aspx) and do a search on Gypsy. I find it odd and amusing that teh stern warning appears in the entry for **Gypsy** but not for the (presumably) far more offensive **gypsy cab**! BTW, I too thought that “Chinese fire drill” was an insult. When I was in kindergarten, it seems that Chinese was a sort of slang for doing something backwards or otherwise wrongly. In a _real_ fire drill you run outside. In a Chinese fire drill, you just run in circles and go back in. Unfortunately, like “Jew’s harp” there just isn’t another good word to describe the thing. (I said _good_ word. Certainly, there are _other_ words for a Jew’s harp (though not a Chinese fire drill), but they are all weak substitutions to avoid the older and more offensive term.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-phrases-racist/232444.md?page=2)