# Are these the basics of the "Memo" story? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 2, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054 "2018-02-02T18:23:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/21 "2018-02-02T21:50:25Z")
The narrative just changed from “there was no collusion” to “you can’t use this evidence of our collusion.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/22 "2018-02-02T21:53:24Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Also concerning: > > The Steele dossier was deemed an essential part of the initial, and all three renewal FISA applications against Carter Page. > > The FBI considered Steele to be an unreliable informant, in that he broke the rules he agreed upon with the FBI by leaking information about his informant status to news media > > The FISC was NOT informed: > > - That Steele had told ADG Ohr that he “was desperate that Donald Trump not get elected and was passionate about him not becoming president.” This was reported by Ohr to the FBI at the time and is reflected in official FBI documents, but his animus towards Trump was not reported to the FISC. > > - ADG Ohr’s wife, who was employed by Fusion GPS to prepare the opposition research material for the Hillary campaign, provided all her work material to the FBI. (it is not stated if this was later used in the application.) > > - The Steele dossier had NOT been corroborated at the time of the initial FISC application, and that any attempts to corroborate it were in their “infancy”. > > - After Steele was terminated as an informant by the FBI for cause, a source validation report of the information he provided was performed by an independent unit within the FBI and described it as only “minimally corroborated”. The dossier was described by then Director Comey as “salacious and unverified” to President Trump. > > - The DOJ was aware of the political motivations (both Hillary’s and Never Trumpers’) at the time of the initial application, but did not disclose it. > > - The application does not disclose that the FBI paid Steele for the information, or that he was also paid by the DNC and the Hillary campaign for the same information. > > FISA applications, because of the heightened risk of abuse to civil liberties, require inclusion of relevant inculpatory AND all potentially exculpatory information for the court to consider. This was clearly not done. Sure looks damning, doesn’t it? Except it’s a tissue of lies and cherry-picked evidence. [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/us/politics/trump-fbi-memo.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/us/politics/trump-fbi-memo.html) And yes, I have now read the memo. It’s a joke, as I expected. Something the Times article doesn’t mention: I’d like to see evidence that Glenn Simpson knew that the DNC was funding Fusion GPS’ project. Yet another reason this is a Trumped-up, toady-approved fantasy. (I find it funny that the only redactions from the memo were the line “TOP SECRET/NOPORN” from each page. I guess it’s Safe For Work…) ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/23 "2018-02-02T22:15:10Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Sure looks damning, doesn’t it? Except it’s a tissue of lies and cherry-picked evidence. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/us/politics/trump-fbi-memo.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/us/politics/trump-fbi-memo.html) > > And yes, I have now read the memo. It’s a joke, as I expected. Something the Times article doesn’t mention: I’d like to see evidence that Glenn Simpson knew that the DNC was funding Fusion GPS’ project. Yet another reason this is a Trumped-up, toady-approved fantasy. > > (I find it funny that the only redactions from the memo were the line “TOP SECRET/NOPORN” from each page. I guess it’s Safe For Work…) “NOFORN”, not “NOPORN”. NOFORN = No Foreign Dissemination. You sure you were in the Navy? ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/24 "2018-02-02T22:23:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > According to [this story](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/fbi-once-planned-to-pay-former-british-spy-who-authored-controversial-trump-dossier/2017/02/28/896ab470-facc-11e6-9845-576c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.9e087952166a), Steele approached the FBI with his dossier before the election. Then, the FBI reached an agreement in principle to pay him to continue the work, just as the FBI reportedly paid him to investigate a FIFA corruption scandal. > > According to this article, that agreement in principle was cancelled after the dossier came to light around January 2017. > > It would seem odd to me that if the FBI thought he was an unreliable source, that they would even entertain paying him after his work on the FIFA case. If the FIFA case turned out poorly, I would imagine the FBI would tell him to take a hike. But everyone knows about the FIFA scandal today, so it would seem to make sense that if the FBI extended an offer to pay him for work on the Russia thing, they must have been fairly satisfied with his previous work. > > It sure seems to be that the only ones criticizing Steele’s work are defenders of Trump generally. Coincidence? He was considered unreliable because he broke a signed agreement with the FBI not to disclose his relationship with the FBI as an informant, which is required of all individuals who enter into that relationship with the FBI. When Steele disclosed to Mother Jones and other media sources that he was working with the FBI, the FBI 86ed that relationship with cause, and he would be considered unreliable for any future work as an informant. In other words, they did not consider him unreliable or erratic before his violation of the informant agreement. This is a well-known procedure, and he would have been briefed on acceptable and unacceptable behavior and actions and agreed to them by signing the informant agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/25 "2018-02-02T22:31:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Is there any other cite for this other than the Nunes memo? :dubious: I recall it was fairly well reported at the time, but I’m not going to dig through every article about the matter. Here’s one mention in the San Francisco Chronicle: _Steele’s last report for Fusion was submitted on Oct. 20. The Post reported that the FBI had reached an agreement with Steele to pay him to continue his work after the election but the arrangement fell apart after his research became public. He may have been reimbursed for some travel expenses._ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/26 "2018-02-02T22:42:00Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > “NOFORN”, not “NOPORN”. NOFORN = No Foreign Dissemination. > > You sure you were in the Navy? Considering that I was never exposed to Top Secret documents, that’s not overly surprising. Quite certain. Wanna see my copies of Lucky Bags? And now, please provide evidence for your ‘feelings.’ How, specifically and in a substantiated way, is Simpson an unreliable witness? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/27 "2018-02-02T23:42:06Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > He was considered unreliable because he broke a signed agreement with the FBI not to disclose his relationship with the FBI as an informant, which is required of all individuals who enter into that relationship with the FBI. When Steele disclosed to Mother Jones and other media sources that he was working with the FBI, the FBI 86ed that relationship with cause, and he would be considered unreliable for any future work as an informant. In other words, they did not consider him unreliable or erratic before his violation of the informant agreement. This is a well-known procedure, and he would have been briefed on acceptable and unacceptable behavior and actions and agreed to them by signing the informant agreement. If he’s believed to be unreliable, why did his former boss at SIS go on the record to say he is reliable? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/28 "2018-02-03T00:51:39Z")
One thing I’ve noticed is that the narrative has gone from “None of it is true”, to “The people who are saying this are untrustworthy, so let’s just chuck out the whole thing.” While ignoring, of course, that the person who wrote the memo (Nunes) has already been caught working directly with/for the target of the investigation (Trump), and had supposedly had to recuse himself from said investigation. Furthermore, we’re not being allowed to hear the Democrat’s rebuttal to the memo- we’re just supposed to take Nunes’ word for everything. Were the parties reversed, I doubt the Republicans would be so credulous. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/29 "2018-02-03T01:43:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If he’s believed to be unreliable, why did his former boss at SIS go on the record to say he is reliable? Why did the corporate boss who employed Steele claim that his employee was reliable? I think you just answered your own question. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/30 "2018-02-03T01:46:15Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > One thing I’ve noticed is that the narrative has gone from “None of it is true”, to “The people who are saying this are untrustworthy, so let’s just chuck out the whole thing.” While ignoring, of course, that the person who wrote the memo (Nunes) has already been caught working directly with/for the target of the investigation (Trump), and had supposedly had to recuse himself from said investigation. > > Furthermore, we’re not being allowed to hear the Democrat’s rebuttal to the memo- we’re just supposed to take Nunes’ word for everything. > > Were the parties reversed, I doubt the Republicans would be so credulous. Were the parties reversed, and President Dubya’s FBI had obtained a FISA warrant against a member of candidate Obama’s staff to try to prove that he was colluding with Kenya by omitting exculpatory evidence, I don’t doubt that the media would be proclaiming it the crime of the century and calling for Bush to be arrested and executed. In you’re heart, you know I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/31 "2018-02-03T01:49:38Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Considering that I was never exposed to Top Secret documents, that’s not overly surprising. > > Quite certain. Wanna see my copies of Lucky Bags? > > And now, please provide evidence for your ‘feelings.’ How, specifically and in a substantiated way, is Simpson an unreliable witness? Don’t try to degrade an argument by claiming that when you advance an opinion, it’s “facts”, but when someone else does, it’s “feelings”. Stick to the argument if you want people to take you seriously. Simpson said, per your post that Steele was reliable. The FBI did not consider him as such because he broke his agreement with them. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/32 "2018-02-03T01:59:46Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > He was considered unreliable because he broke a signed agreement with the FBI not to disclose his relationship with the FBI as an informant, which is required of all individuals who enter into that relationship with the FBI. When Steele disclosed to Mother Jones and other media sources that he was working with the FBI, the FBI 86ed that relationship with cause, and he would be considered unreliable for any future work as an informant. In other words, they did not consider him unreliable or erratic before his violation of the informant agreement. This is a well-known procedure, and he would have been briefed on acceptable and unacceptable behavior and actions and agreed to them by signing the informant agreement. In other words, the FBI doesn’t trust him **to honor a signed non-disclosure agreement.** Which has nothing to do with their trust in the reliability of the work he’d done. ---
**Author:** ![Arizona\_Mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Arizona\_Mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arizona_Mike)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/33 "2018-02-03T02:34:03Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > In other words, the FBI doesn’t trust him **to honor a signed non-disclosure agreement.** Which has nothing to do with their trust in the reliability of the work he’d done. Of course. Were you confusing reliability with accuracy? Two different things in the intelligence community. But an FBI SA would not be able to reopen him as an informant based on his actions, as honesty is a combination of one’s reliability and one’s accuracy… That is an issue in assessing candor with an informant. He may tell you the truth, but is he telling you all the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/34 "2018-02-03T02:42:22Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > In you’re heart, you know I’m right. You know, I really don’t. Calling for death is pretty much a Republican thing, you know? By the way, Nunes is now admitting that he didn’t even read the FISA applications before writing the memo. [His hearsay is based on hearsay.](http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/02/03/devin-nunes-fox-gop-memo-sot-erin.cnn) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/35 "2018-02-03T03:33:11Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Why did the corporate boss who employed Steele claim that his employee was reliable? I think you just answered your own question. Ah - everyone who knows Steele and says nice thing is lying. And everyone who doesn’t know him and says he’s terrible is a disinterested party. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/36 "2018-02-03T03:41:40Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Don’t try to degrade an argument by claiming that when you advance an opinion, it’s “facts”, but when someone else does, it’s “feelings”. Stick to the argument if you want people to take you seriously. Don’t try to distract from the argument. _You_ advanced the opinion that Simpson is an unreliable witness. _I_ responded that, having read both of Simpson’s testimonies, I saw no evidence of that. Then _I_ asked for evidence of your assertion. Last I looked, that’s not an opinion. It’s a call for cites. > [@](#): > > Simpson said, per your post that Steele was reliable. The FBI did not consider him as such because he broke his agreement with them. That is not a cite. It’s yet another assertion. Quote from the FBI, instead of parroting a spun-sugar conspiracy theory written by a Trump toady that has no supporting evidence itself. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/37 "2018-02-03T03:45:03Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > Were the parties reversed, and President Dubya’s FBI had obtained a FISA warrant against a member of candidate Obama’s staff to try to prove that he was colluding with Kenya by omitting exculpatory evidence, I don’t doubt that the media would be proclaiming it the crime of the century and calling for Bush to be arrested and executed. What jumps out at me is that such an investigation into Obama would have turned up jack shit. It the present case, it’s rainin’ Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/38 "2018-02-03T09:34:20Z")
> [@Arizona\_Mike](#): > > And, given how many Democrats declared that release of this information would compromise national security - what information in it was so damaging to national security? Despite the everyday Democrat’s switch to embrace FISA, I have to assume that there’s still a goodly number of people that think the government is spying on Americans, that the whole process is politicized, corrupt, and unconstitutional. The memo fundamentally degrades American trust in the legality, reliability, and standards of the FISA court, which it has taken a decade since GW Bush decided to start imprisoning Americans to re-establish trust in. (Strangley, Trump has done more to raise trust in FISA and the FBI than Obama ever did with the left.) The intelligence community argues that FISA and related intelligence systems - like the massive phone and email metadata databases that Snowden leaked - are necessary and already at the bare minimum for their organizations to basically function, to prevent terror and crime on American soil. If those powers are diminished in any way, then (they argue) that will directly lead to the deaths of hundreds, thousands, or millions of Americans. And if you watched any of the Intelligence or Justice Committee hearings over the last year, despite many of the ones I was watching being ostensibly about the Russia investigation, every single person from the DoJ, FBI, NSA, etc. would throw in a passionate defense of “702” every once in a while, if there was any possible excuse to throw one in. Every single hearing, every single person giving testimony, for a full year. And, more notably, there was significant congressional pushback against them on 702, with several of the congressmen outright calling the thing illegal, unconstitutional, and outright screaming at the person who was giving testimony, because they’d asked for documentation from the intelligence community that the community was giving them the runaround on. The renewal of FISA (which happened just before Nunes posted his memo - and which Nunes voted for, we should note) does not seem to have been, by any means, a slam dunk. And the memo has a great potential to stir up the elements of the government and in the public who want to see the powers of the intelligence community to investigate Americans dismantled. In this case, I don’t think it’s so much about “sources and means” so much as it’s a concern about the whole damn system itself being able to stay afloat. Of course, Trump himself doesn’t give two shits about that, so long as it conflicts with his not-in-jail self, so he was fine to release the memo without trying to tone it down. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/39 "2018-02-03T11:13:48Z")
I feel that this is also a good opportunity to share an essay by the estimable Carter Page, so that we all can ask ourselves if you really need to think all that deeply to decide that this is a man that could use to have an eye kept on him: [http://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/10/02/2015/new-slaves-global-edition-russia-iran-and-segregation-world-economy](http://www.globalpolicyjournal.com/blog/10/02/2015/new-slaves-global-edition-russia-iran-and-segregation-world-economy) No, really. Go read it. The man would be best friends with Harvey Lee Oswald. He’s a genuine nutball. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054/40 "2018-02-03T11:34:44Z")
See also: [The “Grand Bargain” at Risk: What’s at Stake When the President Alleges Politics in Intelligence - Lawfare](https://www.lawfareblog.com/grand-bargain-risk-whats-stake-when-president-alleges-politics-intelligence) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-basics-of-the-memo-story/808054.md?page=3)