# Are these the real Ten Commandments? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239 "2005-01-29T04:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/1 "2005-01-29T04:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Exodus 34-13 > > 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. > > ``` > 15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. > > 17 "Do not make cast idols. > > 18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt. > > 19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons. > > ``` > > "No one is to appear before me empty-handed. > > ``` > 21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest. > > 22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. ** 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD , the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God. > > 25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning. > > 26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God. > > ``` > > “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.” The next verses refer to these as the Ten Commandments: > [@](#): > > 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments. This is the first time that anything is referred to as the Ten Commandment. The commonly believed Ten Commandments in Exodu 20 are never referred to as the Ten Commandments: > [@](#): > > Exodus 20-1 > > 1 And God spoke all these words: > > ``` > 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. > > 3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me. > > 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. > > 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. > > 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. > > 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. > > 13 "You shall not murder. > > 14 "You shall not commit adultery. > > 15 "You shall not steal. > > 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. > > 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor." > > 18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." > > 20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." > > 21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was. > > ``` So where am I going wrong here? Why is what is listed in Exodus 20 the Ten Commandments when they are never referred to as the Ten Commands? Why is what is listed in Exodus 34 not the Ten Commnadment since they are referred as the Ten Commandments? ---
**Author:** ![Lynwood\_Slim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Lynwood\_Slim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynwood_Slim)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/2 "2005-01-29T05:25:52Z")
In Rabbinic Literature (Midrash, Talmud, etc.), the most common term is not “10 Commandments” “Aseret Ha-Mitzvot” in Hebrew, but rather “Aseret Ha-Dibrot” “the 10 Revelatory Speech Statements” (“dibrot” is rather hard to translate). The so-called 10 Commandments at Mt. Sinai in Ex 20 are preferred, because this is portrayed as God’s first speaking to the entire people of Israel, effectively sealing God’s covenant with them. In addition, in the book of Deuteronony, when Moses reviews what happened at Sinai, it is the Ex. 20 version that is referred to (cited with some modifications, however). Hebrew speakers generally do not say “Aseret Ha-Mitzvot” but rather “Aseret ha-Dibrot” and always mean Ex 20, or the slightly different second rendition in Deut 5. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/3 "2005-01-29T06:26:40Z")
It’s notable that Judiasm, Catholicism, and Protestantism all divide the TC up in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/4 "2005-01-29T06:51:27Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > It’s notable that Judiasm, Catholicism, and Protestantism all divide the TC up in different ways. Yes, but Pres. Bush prefers “[the standard version](http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/Global/church_&_state.htm)”. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/5 "2005-01-29T14:29:35Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Yes, but Pres. Bush prefers “[the standard version](http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/Global/church_&_state.htm)”. Judaism & Protestantism agree on this ordering (1- No Other Gods, 2- No Graven Images, 3- Don’t Misuse the Name, … 9- No False Witness, 10- No Coveting of Neighbor’s Wife or Goods) so it’s only Catholicism that has this ordering (1- No Other Gods or Graven Images, 3- Don’t Misuse the Name… 9- No Coveting of N’s Wife, 10- No Coveting of Neighbor’s Goods). I don’t know how Orthodox C’tianity orders them. Since the big Ten came from the Jews, I say they know best on this. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/6 "2005-01-29T16:32:40Z")
The term “Ten Commandments” (actually, “ten statements”, as **Lynwood** mentions) also appears in Deut 4:13 and 10:4. The reference is always to the commandments carved on the stone tablets, rather than other commandments which were not so carved. I don’t think your seeming contradiction is as awkward as you might think. If you accept the Documentary (multiple-author) theory, then the first set of Ten Commandments, from Ex 20) are from the priestly author “P”, while the set of Ten Commandments you’ve cited from Ex 34 are from the author “J.” The multiple-author theory is, of course, ultimately unsatisfactory as an explanation, because the Redactor certainly edited the material together, so we really do have one “author” or editor, regardless of source material. We are therefore justified in viewing the entire Pentateuch text as a whole work, whether by one Author or by one Editor being irrelevant for analysis. Remember the overview of the story: the people arrive at the mountain, assemble and prepare themselves, and God’s voice speaks to the entire people (Ex 20), what we call “The Ten Commandments.” The people are fearful and can’t bear the direct contact, and so Moses is delegated to speak to God for all the rest of the commandments, the whole next bunch of chapters to Ex 32. Note Ex 31:18 – after God speaks alone to Moses, He carves two tablets with the Pact. “The Pact” is assumed to mean the words spoken to the whole people. In the Book of Deuteronomy, Moses is speaking his farewell address to the people, and he reminds them, in Deut 10:4, about “…the Ten Commandments that He addressed to you on the mountain out of the fire on the day of the Assembly.” Similarly, the usage in Deut 4:12 -13 refers to “The Lord spoke to you out of the fire… He declared to you the covenant that He commanded you to observe, the Ten Commandments.” It’s fairly clear that the term “Ten Commandments” refers to the spoken words from Ex 20. In Chapter 32, Moses comes down, finds the people worshipping the golden calf, smashes the tablets in anger, and must go back up the mountain to try to appease God’s wrath. God gives Moses yet more commandments, including those you cite from Chapter 34. Note that Chapter 34 begins, “Carve two tablets of stone like the first, and I will inscribe upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you shattered.” Hence, the assumption is that the “extra” ten commandments in Chapter 34 are just another set of ten, they’re not “The” ten commandments. Does that explain it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/7 "2005-01-29T18:36:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Judaism & Protestantism agree on this ordering … I will not attempt to speak for all Jewish traditions, but I have seen two sources that assign a different order to modern Jewish thought, as well. The numbering provided in Alexander McKenzie’s Dictionary of the Bible (with early supporters for each version) is as follows. In addition, the on-line Jewish Encyclopedia from the early 20th century provides a similar Jewish numbering system in its article on the [Decalogue](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=192&letter=D&search=decalogue). This numbering is certainly consistent with the concept of the “Ten Words” although it makes less sense if one uses the term “Ten Commandments.” Given that even the borrowed word _decalogue_ means “ten words,” it is clear that that interpretation cannot be dismissed. (I do find it interesting that Philo and Josephus did not use that numbering and I do not know when the shift occurred.) ```auto **Reformed Protestant Churches** **Modern Orthodox Churches** 01. Prohibit false gods 02. Prohibit images 03. Prohibit vain use of Divine name Philo of Alexandria, Jewish 04. Honor Sabbath philosopher (10 BCE - 50 CE) 05. Honor parents (Flavius) Josephus, Jewish 06. Prohibit murder historian (fl. 1st Century CE) 07. Prohibit adultery Greek Fathers of the Christian Church 08. Prohibit theft 09. Prohibit bearing false witness 10. Prohibit covetousness **Modern Catholic Church** **Evangelical/Lutheran Protestant Churches** 01. Prohibit false gods and images 02. Prohibit vain use of Divine name 03. Honor Sabbath Clement of Alexandria, Christian 03. Honor Sabbath theologian (ca 150 – 215?) 04. Honor parents Origen, Christian theologian 05. Prohibit murder (ca. 185 - 254) 06. Prohibit adultery Augustine of Hippo, Christian 07. Prohibit theft theologian (354 - 430) 08. Prohibit bearing false witness 09. Prohibit coveting neighbor's wife 10. Prohibit coveting neighbor's goods **Modern Judaism** 01. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." 02. Prohibit false or foreign gods and images 03. Prohibit vain use of Divine name 04. Honor Sabbath 05. Honor parents 06. Prohibit murder 07. Prohibit adultery 08. Prohibit theft 09. Prohibit bearing false witness 10. Prohibit covetousness ``` ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/8 "2005-01-29T19:23:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I will not attempt to speak for all Jewish traditions, but I have seen two sources that assign a different order to modern Jewish thought, as well. I stand corrected! Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/9 "2005-01-29T20:01:57Z")
> [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Note that Chapter 34 begins, “Carve two tablets of stone like the first, and I will inscribe upon the tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you shattered.” > > Hence, the assumption is that the “extra” ten commandments in Chapter 34 are just another set of ten, they’re not “The” ten commandments. Does that explain it? It actually sounds like the new tablets should have the same stuff as the old one. But they don’t. Which is a little confusing. While slaughtering a calf and cooking it in its mother’s milk does seem a little sadistic, it does seem a little bizarre as a law. However: “All the firstborn are mine!” is like, the kickassiest commandment ever. That one goes right to the top of the top ten commandment countdown. ---
**Author:** ![Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kel\_Varnsen\_Latex\_Division](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kel_Varnsen_Latex_Division)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/10 "2005-01-30T06:17:20Z")
So, I am, like, totally confused. What should Judge Moore have on his monument -Exodus 20 stuff or Exodus 34 stuff? Should we really be calling them the Ten Statements because the Ten Commandments are in Exodus 34? ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/11 "2005-01-30T06:55:01Z")
25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning. I should really stop mixing my blood sacrifices with beer. No wonder God hates me. Actually I really like these alternate testaments much better. Seeing that I don’t own livestock, worship idols, or ever do anything besides sleep and eat on the weekend, I’m really set. I like how celebrating New Years is a commandment. I can totally do that. These are ten rules i can really keep. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/12 "2005-01-30T06:56:50Z")
The references to the “ten commandments” (or words or statements) refer to either Exodus 20: 1 - 17 or to Deuteronomy 5: 6 - 21. The phrase “ten commandments/statements/words” _never_ refers to Exodus 34. That a person can, with a little bit of selective reading, discern ten specific commands following Exodus 34:28 is irrelevant to the discussion of the laws inscribed in stone that were first written by God and destroyed by Moses and then re-carved by Moses at the dictation of God. There are actually three separate places where “Ten Commandments” are mentioned: Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4. In each case, the reference is to the laws inscribed on the stones (which are listed at Exodus 20:1 -17 and Deuteronomy 5:6 - 21). None of the references are directed toward any verses that happen to occur after the references. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/13 "2005-01-30T07:04:14Z")
_Addendum_: As a publicity seeking attention whore who happens to have been raised in a Fundamentalist Christian tradition, Judge Moore would choose to list either some abridgement of the verses listed in Exodus 20: > [@](#): > > 1: And God spoke all these words, saying, > 2: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. > 3: "You shall have no other gods before me. 4: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5: you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6: but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. > 7: "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. > 8: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9: Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 10: but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; 11: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it. > 12: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you. > 13: "You shall not murder. > 14: "You shall not commit adultery. > 15: "You shall not steal. > 16: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. > 17: “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s.” or in Deuteronomy 5: > [@](#): > > 6: "`I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 7: "`You shall have no other gods before me. 8: "`You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9: you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10: but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. 11: "`You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. > 12: "`Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13: Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14: but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your manservant, or your maidservant, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you. 15: You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. 16: "`Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you; that your days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with you, in the land which the LORD your God gives you. > 17: "`You shall not murder. 18: "`Neither shall you commit adultery. > 19: "`Neither shall you steal. 20: "`Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor. > 21: "`Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’ Of course, as an officer of the law within the United States, he should have really refrained from attempting to impose his religious beliefs on the citizens of the state in which he served (before he was so justly expelled). ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/14 "2005-01-30T14:11:05Z")
C’mon, **tomndebb** , he would undoubtedly have used the original language, the King James version, not your wimpy modernized version. What’s a commandment if it don’t have a “Thou Shalt” in front of it? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-the-real-ten-commandments/287239/15 "2005-01-30T15:17:45Z")
Ah, yes. The language that was good enough for Jesus.