# Are these very insulting Atheist billboards attacking Christianity & Mormonism really the way to go? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 23, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357 "2012-08-23T05:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/101 "2012-08-23T17:27:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Here.](http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/atheist-group-challenges-colts-ad-ban-1.1279600) In that specific instance I’m not feeling outrage. The article was dated March 2012, the policy against controversial ads was passed in “June”, which I’ll guess means 2011. The article says that ads for politicians and political issues are not permitted. The ad for a blog with links to “Holocaust-denial websites” seems like a strained example, and if the ad promoting adoption vs abortion was displayed before the June policy change, then it’s not an example of selective enforcement. As for the OP and the billboard issue, I wouldn’t welcome similar billboards from religious groups being posted in urban areas. I usually see nutball religious signs in the country side. If Charlotte has gloating signs from churches then counter-assaults are justified, just to get the other viewpoint into the dialogue. Would less mocking signs be better? Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/102 "2012-08-23T17:27:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That doesn’t say anything for billboards in general or anything about this particular topic. I believe part of this topic is the effectiveness of those atheist billboards. I believe they were meant to counteract the increasing pandering to Christians by both political parties. Remember, they were originally intended to be displayed outside the Republican convention, but that was blocked. They are not so much intended to gently sway Christians, but to say that the side attacking them has a few glaring inconsistencies and problems of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/103 "2012-08-23T17:40:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I believe part of this topic is the effectiveness of those atheist billboards. Sorry, my wording wasn’t specific enough. I meant the topic of religion and atheism, not the topic of this thread: I was saying that the fact that advertising is effective in general does not mean that billboards are effective or that billboards are a good format for this particular subject matter. My thinking is that they’re probably fine for roadside restaurants and amusement parks and probably not so much for, you know, cosmology. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/104 "2012-08-23T17:49:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sorry, my wording wasn’t specific enough. I meant the topic of religion and atheism, not the topic of this thread: I was saying that the fact that advertising is effective in general does not mean that billboards are effective or that billboards are a good format for this particular subject matter. My thinking is that they’re probably fine for roadside restaurants and amusement parks and probably not so much for, you know, cosmology. I don’t think your typical religious billboard reader knows the definition of “cosmology”, and thinks that it might have something to do with cosmetics or something. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/105 "2012-08-23T17:52:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > - wash cars for free Snort ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/106 "2012-08-23T17:56:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think your typical religious billboard reader knows the definition of “cosmology”, and thinks that it might have something to do with cosmetics or something. But if we show him a perfectly crafted pro-atheist billboard… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/107 "2012-08-23T18:01:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But if we show him a perfectly crafted pro-atheist billboard… But, a pro-atheist billboard that already exists is more perfect than one that doesn’t, so by definition if it hasn’t been created yet, it’s not the perfectly crafted pro-atheist billboard. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/108 "2012-08-23T18:06:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But if we show him a perfectly crafted pro-atheist billboard… A well-crafted pro-atheist billboard can “rally the troops” so to speak, or be used to return fire, but claiming that a particular pro-atheist billboard is bad because it offends Christians is disingenuous-_any_ billboard promoting atheism, or for that matter containing the words “atheism” or “atheist” in a manner that doesn’t condemn them, will offend Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/109 "2012-08-23T18:26:35Z")
I’ve never said that any pro-atheist billboard that offends Christians is bad just because it offends Christians, and I made some points to the contrary in my first post in this thread. I question the utility of doing this by billboard, but putting that aside, given the choice between a billboard that offends Christians with stupidity and one that offends and makes a cogent argument, I’d prefer the second one. These billboards don’t say much of value. Calling out Mormons for the bigotry and big money is very much fair game. Magic underwear if funny but not an argument and perhaps it takes away from a more legitimate point. The Christian one is just inflammatory. As billboard messages go, I prefer the “You don’t need God to be good” variety since at least it asserts something positive about atheism. Failing that I’d rather respond to an action related to religion instead of making a generalized attack. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/110 "2012-08-23T18:46:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just a hint - I don’t think you will want to publicize those rates very much, at least not in America. [Cite](http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577). > [Cite.](http://www.startribune.com/nation/166744606.html?refer=y) I’m not making the billboards. If someone starts a campaign, they can find whatever that shows that atheists can be just as good people as religious people. But I brought up the charity thing specifically because I read in [Slactivist](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/08/21/study-reveals-church-goers-give-more-to-churches-than-people-who-dont-go-to-church-give-to-those-churches/), my favorite religious blog, where it was discussing a report from Christianity Today, that although religious people might trumpet about how they give more money to charitable causes, they actually give less once religion is taken out of the picture. As the writer of Slactivist puts it, “Church members, apparently, are likelier to donate to their churches than non-church members are.” > [@Marley23](#): > > Sorry, my wording wasn’t specific enough. I meant the topic of religion and atheism, not the topic of this thread: I was saying that the fact that advertising is effective in general does not mean that billboards are effective or that billboards are a good format for this particular subject matter. My thinking is that they’re probably fine for roadside restaurants and amusement parks and probably not so much for, you know, cosmology. Well, when I was saying that ads should be made with bios of admirable atheists and statistics and other things like that, I was thinking those would be print ads in magazines and newspapers and maybe some like subway and bus ads that can have a little more information than billboards. It’s true that no one is immediately going to change their life after seeing a billboard. But ads can have small, subtle influences on people. John Doe in Smalltown America who attends Main Street Church might be double thinking this whole religious thing, but afraid to say anything to his friends or family because he’s afraid of being ostracized. But if he sees a billboard that says “It’s okay to be atheist,” maybe he won’t feel so alone. He might go to the website and find some people to talk things over with. Or Jane Smith is in charge of hiring new people at her office. She only wants to hire good, trustworthy people, so she’s hesitant to hire anyone who doesn’t attend a church. She can’t and doesn’t ask straight out about religious affiliation, but in places where everyone knows everyone else, Jane would still know who goes to church and who doesn’t. Seeing the ads wouldn’t stop Jane from going to church, but maybe she’d stop being discriminatory against them. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/111 "2012-08-23T18:50:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yet there are a lot more people who think atheists are assholes than who think religious people are assholes. If groupthink is your basis for deeming the pious more “right” then maybe tyranny of the majority is your real hidden agenda? Good luck with that. The problem with the billboards is it speaks more to a symptom of the cultural and societal divisions in this country today. There are more atheists and fewer religious and the numbers converge with each passing generation. Atheists are finally getting fed up with the constant drone of religious dogma seeping into every aspect of civilized society. Regardless of the atheist organization’s tactics, background or motivation, the religious will have to deal with them sooner or later. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/112 "2012-08-23T19:01:17Z")
Basically, the argument seems to boil down to: “Well he started it!” > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Yeah, let’s polarize the sides with an “us vs. them” approach. That’ll get the point across in a nice, smooth way. Especially this [charming example](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/13/atheist-slavery-billboard-pennsylvania-raises-tempers_n_1342268.html). As one person pointed out: > [@](#): > > “That image, that was my ancestors. That represents their struggle and all the pain they went through,” he said. “I don’t think a lot of people understood how offensive that is. Schoolchildren will just see that black face and the words. They don’t understand the context.” (BTW, has anyone _ever_ changed their beliefs after seeing a billboard? Atheist OR religious?) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/113 "2012-08-23T19:09:18Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Religion has traditionally been off-limits to criticism I don’t think I agree with that. You can find skepticism and mockery of religious figures in all kinds of art and philosophy. Certainly churches don’t appreciate that and there have been periods they would kill you if they caught you doing it and there are a lot of religious nuts today who want people to think they can’t say negative things about religion (and some will back that up with violence, too). But all things considered I don’t think that’s true in modern times. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/114 "2012-08-23T19:21:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think I agree with that. You can find skepticism and mockery of religious figures in all kinds of art and philosophy. Certainly churches don’t appreciate that and there have been periods they would kill you if they caught you doing it and there are a lot of religious nuts today who want people to think they can’t say negative things about religion (and some will back that up with violence, too). But all things considered I don’t think that’s true in modern times. Definitely not as true as it used to be…but you still don’t see letters to the editor _accusing_ someone of being a Christian, or stating that someone’s Christianity means that they aren’t a “true” American. Churches that post anti-atheism messages on their churchfront message boards don’t usually get vandalized for doing so, and I can’t recall ever seeing an organized campaign with civic leaders involved decrying a Christian billboard of _any_ sort. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/115 "2012-08-23T19:30:38Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > If groupthink is your basis for deeming the pious more “right” then maybe tyranny of the majority is your real hidden agenda? Good luck with that. I’m not claiming who’s right. I’m talking about which group is thought more as assholes, and is thereby less able to get people to agree with them. Remember what I said earlier to **Tad–**? People are, incorrectly but understandably, likely to notice the most vocal among groups, and think that the vocal ones are the characteristic ones. My church’s way of being “vocal” is acts of charity, and the occasional assholish act. Some atheists’ way of being “vocal” is the occasional assholish act, and a lot less acts of charity to offset that. [QUOTE=Sam Lowry] …although religious people might trumpet about how they give more money to charitable causes, they actually give less once religion is taken out of the picture. [/QUOTE] You may want to read my cite. It says > [@](#): > > Religious people are more generous than secular people with nonreligious causes as well as with religious ones. While 68 percent of the total population gives (and 51 percent volunteers) to nonreligious causes each year, religious people are 10 points more likely to give to these causes than secularists (71 percent to 61 percent) and 21 points more likely to volunteer (60 percent to 39 percent). For example, religious people are 7 points more likely than secularists to volunteer for neighborhood and civic groups, 20 points more likely to volunteer to help the poor or elderly, and 26 points more likely to volunteer for school or youth programs. It seems fair to say that religion engenders charity in general — including nonreligious charity. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/116 "2012-08-23T19:33:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Definitely not as true as it used to be…but you still don’t see letters to the editor _accusing_ someone of being a Christian, or stating that someone’s Christianity means that they aren’t a “true” American. Churches that post anti-atheism messages on their churchfront message boards don’t usually get vandalized for doing so, and I can’t recall ever seeing an organized campaign with civic leaders involved decrying a Christian billboard of _any_ sort. No argument there. But the idea that religion has traditionally been uncriticable seems very questionable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/117 "2012-08-23T19:40:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No argument there. But the idea that religion has traditionally been uncriticable seems very questionable to me. If someone wishes to criticize a Christian in a public forum, a list of specific nefarious deeds is usually necessary for your argument to be even the least bit effective. In that same public forum, if someone wishes to criticize an atheist, one usually only has to name them as such. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/118 "2012-08-23T19:51:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s compare [billboards.](http://www.dangeroustalk.net/billboard-wars.html#christian) > edited to add: Check out the one from Kentucky-“If God doesn’t matter to him, do you?”, with a kid pointing a rifle at the viewer. > Lovely. Gotta say I’m a big fan of the “Evolution is a fairy-tale for grown-ups !” one. I’ve seen some beautifully self-defeating arguments in my time, but none quite so concise I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/119 "2012-08-23T19:55:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just a hint - I don’t think you will want to publicize those rates very much, at least not in America. [Cite](http://www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577). > [Cite.](http://www.startribune.com/nation/166744606.html?refer=y) > > Regards, > Shodan Battle of The Cites? Kewl. Can I play too? [**Atheists are the most generous—even without heavenly reward!**](http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/pellissier20111125) > [@](#): > > \*\*…But atheists? No heaven awaits them. No pearly gates, eager virgins, harping angels, fluffy clouds, or succulent oasis. No reward whatsoever. Atheists have no faith, no expectation of benefit from a deity. So, atheists are probably selfish, right? Pitiless, parsimonious. Totally stingy misers, not passing a penny off to the poor…correct? > > WRONG! Atheists, non-believers, secular humanists, skeptics—the whole gamut of the godless have emerged in recent years as inarguably the most generous benefactors on the globe. That’s right. Hordes of heretics are the world’s biggest damned philanthropists. Both individually and in groups, heathen infidels are topping the fundraising charts. > > First, the facts. > > The current most charitable individuals in the United States, based on “Estimated Lifetime Giving,” are: > > ``` > 1) Warren Buffett (atheist, donated $40.785 billion to “health, education, humanitarian causes”) > > 2) Bill & Melinda Gates (atheists, donated $27.602 billion to “global health and development, education”) > > 3) George Soros (atheist, donated $6.936 billion to “open and democratic societies”) > > ``` > > A century ago, one of the USA’s leading philanthropists was Andrew Carnegie, atheist…\*\* –much more at source. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357/120 "2012-08-23T20:01:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But if we show him a perfectly crafted pro-atheist billboard… Honest question: what would such a billboard look like in your mind’s eye? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-these-very-insulting-atheist-billboards-attacking-christianity-mormonism-really-the-way-to-go/632357.md?page=7)