# Are today's college kids getting stupider? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 1, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497 "2006-12-01T18:04:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/61 "2006-12-03T10:57:19Z")
[QUOTE=anu-la1979] I don’t know what your point is- [/QUOTE] Well, my point now is that in your original statement you said nothing about getting in the “top” colleges. You said simply “getting into college is getting tougher and tougher.” (Likewise, the article you linked to repeatedly says getting into the “top” schools is harder.) The explosive increase in the number of people with bachelors degrees over the last 30-plus years suggests that is getting _easier_ to get into colleges in general. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/62 "2006-12-03T14:56:24Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Maybe, maybe not. I know lots of parents who, to save money, force their kids to got for two years to a CC with the intent of transferring to a four year college later. (They seem to need the money for their new SUV - these people are not poor.) These parents (and some of the teachers in my kids high schools) do not seem to see the difference between our local CC and our local UC (which happens to be Berkeley) or even between the CC and Harvard. So some kids get stuck in CCs for that reason. [/QUOTE] This is absolutely true. Another factor is the school counselors not doing their jobs. For students whose parents are not in the know about college, counselors should be a source of information and support. Too often, this is not the case. It is without question easier for someone whose parents have a clue about college, but who himself is academically undistinguished, to get into a good school, than someone with uninvolved or un-clued-in parents but a good record, to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/63 "2006-12-03T19:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Maybe, maybe not. I know lots of parents who, to save money, force their kids to got for two years to a CC with the intent of transferring to a four year college later. (They seem to need the money for their new SUV - these people are not poor.) These parents (and some of the teachers in my kids high schools) do not seem to see the difference between our local CC and our local UC (which happens to be Berkeley) or even between the CC and Harvard. So some kids get stuck in CCs for that reason. [/QUOTE] My son had money for college from his grandfather. We discussed his options. He had the money and grades for UCLA, or other state school. We discussed the pros and cons. He made the decision to go 2 years to a CC and transfer to a state uni. He took all of his gen ed and lower division stuff at the CC. Classes were smaller, and he enjoyed it. Know what? His diploma just says state U not 1/2 state U. Plus he has almost enough money left in the bank for a down payment on a house. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/64 "2006-12-03T21:40:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Walloon:The explosive increase in the number of people with bachelors degrees over the last 30-plus years suggests that is getting easier to get into colleges in general. But how does it necessarily follow that getting into colleges is “easier” when colleges (and in my more recent experience, law schools) are known to be raising admissions standards year by year? For instance, when I attended U of I the average LSAT was 163 while it’s now listed as 166 (that jump is from 2002 when I matriculated to 2006). There’s a huge difference between those averages-it means you have to get substantially more children scoring in the very high 160s to low 170s and probably raise the lowest scores from the high 150s to low 160s (which is generally a leap for most kids to begin with). I haven’t heard about them changing the grading or format of the exam yet. Yet, I’m sure more and more kids are going to law school even as admissions standards are rising across the tiers-probably unaccredited and online law schools. That doesn’t mean going to a real law school that will actually get you a job after you’re done paying out is getting “easier”. It’s actually getting much more difficult. However, prospective lawyers now have more options to obtain the degree if they really want it. Could the proliferation of B.A.s not mean the rise of the same type of unaccredited schools (sorry, I don’t know what sort of accreditation is required at the undergraduate level) or schools that require only a credit card number for admission? Additionally, I don’t think “easier” means admissions standards at colleges and universities are falling-I’d bet SATs and GPAs are increasing across the board, even at less competitive schools (although I will also allow that this trend may be due to either GPA inflation and re-adjusted grading techniques). I’d say it means financing education is becoming easier and that the culture in this country has changed towards requiring a B.A. for jobs where an Associate’s degree, a high school diploma or real-world experience would have previously sufficed. Anyway, I guess your disagreement with me rests on what each of us thinks regarding the phrase “going to college” and “easier”. I took the phrase “easier” to mean falling admissions standards when, in my view of the facts, they seem only to be rising. Additionally, I do not consider “Bob Jones School of College” a college or the act of attending as getting any sort of worthwhile degree. If I had been in a position where I had to go to that type of school, I would rather not have attended at all. Perhaps my statements merely reflect a personal prejudice and preference towards attending a legitimate state or accredited private institution. Apparently you disagree, and as I am no longer prone to engage in lengthy debates without being paid, I’ll concede you won this sizzling internet nitpick. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Bruin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Queen\_Bruin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Bruin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/65 "2006-12-03T21:46:18Z")
[QUOTE=anu-la1979] I haven’t heard about them changing the grading or format of the exam yet. [/QUOTE] The format is changing this summer. [Cite.](http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=/lsac/changing-news.asp#LSAT_changes) ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/66 "2006-12-03T21:47:20Z")
The latest averages for my school still refer back to the old exam. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/67 "2006-12-03T21:50:53Z")
Since likely refer to this year’s incoming class, I mean. I pulled it off the Princeton Review site. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/68 "2006-12-03T21:54:19Z")
Wow, sorry to triple post but your citation merely refers to them adding 2 reading passages instead of the traditional format. The grading scale still stays at 180, doesn’t it? The amount of reading stays approximately the same-I don’t really know how it would make the test easier or harder. I wonder if they’re still letting you take it by pencil and paper rather than on the computer like the GRE? That would have affected me more than slight fiddling with the number of reading passages. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Bruin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Queen\_Bruin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Bruin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/69 "2006-12-03T22:14:41Z")
[QUOTE=anu-la1979] Wow, sorry to triple post but your citation merely refers to them adding 2 reading passages instead of the traditional format. The grading scale still stays at 180, doesn’t it? The amount of reading stays approximately the same-I don’t really know how it would make the test easier or harder. I wonder if they’re still letting you take it by pencil and paper rather than on the computer like the GRE? That would have affected me more than slight fiddling with the number of reading passages. [/QUOTE] I am pretty sure the grading scale remains the same. I am not sure whether it will remain pencil/paper or go to an electronic format, but I don’t think they’d change it from the traditional format without announcing it. I think the comparative aspect will make it easier for some and harder for others. Mostly to me it seems like test-prep companies are capitalizing on the anxieties of the test-takers - the LSAC seems to be keeping on the down-low with the change. I wonder what the rationalization is for it, though. The LSAC isn’t giving out practice sections until February, so it is hard to gauge the motives behind it. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/70 "2006-12-03T22:25:56Z")
[QUOTE=bump] Admin assistants? Nobody I know started as an admin assistant, save my friend who dropped out in her fourth year of college. All the rest either went on immediately to graduate school, or into relatively high paying jobs (32,000 in 1996 dollars). As to the OP, I think it’s more a consequence of what’s expected of young people. The way I understand things, until recently, college was only an expectation of the brightest students, not of the majority of students. Most high school graduates were generally expected to get a job in one of the trades, or something like that. Nowadays, there’s a lot of media exposure of college spring break, etc… that most likely makes 18-19 year olds think that going to college is the thing to do, and concentrate on the partying aspects, to the detriment of the academics. Mix that with community/junior colleges being the lowest rung on the college ladder, and you get a bunch of people who probably shouldn’t be there in the first place. It’s not surprising that they will do poorly in the academic aspects. In other words, it’s not cool to get a job straight out of high school, so many students go to community colleges, even though they should probably just get a job. [/QUOTE] Just for the record, Canadian technical colleges are very similar to American community colleges. My province has two universities and four big tech colleges, and the tech colleges teach the trades. Graduates of our trade programs are highly sought after and some of the waiting lists are over 10 years. So many students here are adult learners so they’re motivated to get a better job as they’re paying their own way and supporting their families. As for me? Neither of the universities offer my program, and the nearest degree program after that is over 10 hours drive away, which I wasn’t ready for after high school (even though I had applied and was accepted to the 30-person program). We have cutting-edge technology for the industry. So tech colleges sometimes get a rep they don’t deserve. Also? My tuition _so_ isn’t cheaper than a full university just because I’m going to a tech college. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/71 "2006-12-03T22:36:36Z")
[QUOTE=anu-la1979] Additionally, I do not consider “Bob Jones School of College” a college or the act of attending as getting any sort of worthwhile degree. If I had been in a position where I had to go to that type of school, I would rather not have attended at all. [/QUOTE] Do you have any evidence to support your thesis that a substantial part of this increase in bacehlor’s degrees is from unaccredited colleges? If so, please present that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/72 "2006-12-04T01:39:53Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Maybe, maybe not. I know lots of parents who, to save money, force their kids to got for two years to a CC with the intent of transferring to a four year college later. (They seem to need the money for their new SUV - these people are not poor.) These parents (and some of the teachers in my kids high schools) do not seem to see the difference between our local CC and our local UC (which happens to be Berkeley) or even between the CC and Harvard. So some kids get stuck in CCs for that reason. [/QUOTE] Or maybe these parents know their children and aren’t willing to commit to the kind of money that UC charges if their kids aren’t willing to commit to their education. Community college is also kind of a trial period to see how students adjust to college. Robin ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/73 "2006-12-04T20:55:10Z")
Many view college as an apprenticeship. It opens doors for a job and they are just trying to get through. I took a history class at night a few years ago. Some of the students didn’t even bother to read the book. They justified it by saying it was a job requirement to get a degree but they were really not interested in learning.When I stated they could learn and grow from it ,they acted like I was nuts. It is not a new attitude. Kids whats the matter with kids today. We were so mush better in every way. Why can’t they be like we were so perfect in every way. Whats the matter with kids today It is not new. But cheating and buying term papers is something I was not familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497/74 "2006-12-04T22:26:13Z")
The idea of community college being the bottom of the barrel simply isn’t true. California has an amazing community college program with classes that rival those in Universities of other states. Of the top 50 Universities in the nation, California has 6 public Universities, more than any other state. At all of these 6 public universities, tuition is under $7,000 per year, much cheaper than a lot of the other public universities. How does California get away with this? By having good community colleges. The school system is designed to save the Universities money because the cost of educating a student for a year at a community college is a lot less expensive than educating a student per year at a University. The costs are less because there are no dorms, no cafeterias, less faculty, smaller campuses, etc. The government tries to encourage students to go to community colleges for their first two years. They do this in a variety of ways including offering to pay for their first two years, considering transfers before Freshmen at the Unis, and offering special financial aid packages to transfer students from community colleges. They also keep the class size much lower in the ccs than in the unis. We use the same textbooks and cover the same materials. For the general ed stuff I would much rather be taught in a class of 10 students (honors class size) by a professor with a PhD than in class of 300 by TAs. I admit I was very disappointed when I first learned that my units from the University of Cincinnati weren’t enough to to qualify me for a direct transfer to a UC. However, the education I’ve received here has been amazing. I retook several classes and, in my opinion, the community colleges versions were harder than the University versions I took back in Ohio. Columbia and Cornell (and others) seem to think that the community colleges here have excellent students otherwise they wouldn’t keep coming back for visits or accepting a good percentage of students from my community college each year. I’m sure I would’ve been rejected from Columbia had I applied my senior year of high school but my community college has given me a good shot at an ivy league. I think not having enough units to transfer directly to a UC was the best thing that happened to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-todays-college-kids-getting-stupider/382497.md?page=3)