# Are Transsexuals Mentally Ill?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759
**Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
**Created:** [August 17, 2012, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759 "2012-08-17T09:13:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/181 "2012-09-04T19:18:22Z")
> [@stevenova](#):
>
> Now taxpayers get to pay for it
>
> [U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/04/13660348-judge-grants-sex-change-surgery-for-prison-inmate#comments)
Thanx for the newsclipping service.
Care to converse?
---
### Author:  [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/182 "2012-09-04T19:52:42Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#):
>
> Assuming you live in the US, every other country has far lower per capita costs for medicine anyway (the cost in taxation plus the cost of full coverage with no copay on Bupa amounts to less than the per capita cost in the US). You could do with a more socialist attitude to medicine.
You’d need to reform tort law for that to have any chance here, and how much money will it save people to have medically unecessary surgeries that are incredibly expensive like sex change operations?
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/183 "2012-09-04T20:18:08Z")
How much do repeated hospitalizations from repeated suicide attempts and self-harm episodes cost, **Stevenova**? Because for about 1/3 to 1/2 (or maybe more) of these people that’s the alternative, not “they don’t need care at all”. Have you considered that perhaps a treatment, however objectionable you might find it, that puts a stop to suicide/self harm might, in the long run, actually be cheaper?
I had a friend once who was a “cutter”. She regularly racked up six-digit hospital bills from her propensity to not only cut herself and swallow razor blades, but also to create third degree burns, all of it paid by taxpayers over the course of about 15 years where this was an almost annual circus (do the math). Yes, a seriously messed up individual, _definitely_ mentally ill, but the answer wasn’t to deny her treatment but to try different things until something was found that WORKED. I’m happy to say that something was, eventually, found and she’s hasn’t been a medical patient for about a quarter century, yay for psychiatry when it actually works. She wasn’t a transsexual, but maybe she’s one of the reasons I put “relieve suffering” ahead of “make me comfortable with this”.
When someone is unhappy enough - regardless of cause - they are actively hurting themselves to that point any discomfort I might feel at an effective course of treatment is _nothing_ compared to alleviating the abyss of suffering that person is living in. I do understand that if you have never confronted such a thing in real life you might not understand it - and if you haven’t, I sincerely wish you _don’t_ have to confront the unvarnished reality of that sort of situation. I do, however, wish that more people would have empathy for the suffering rather than condemnation.
---
### Author:  [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/184 "2012-09-04T22:20:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> How much do repeated hospitalizations from repeated suicide attempts and self-harm episodes cost, **Stevenova**? Because for about 1/3 to 1/2 (or maybe more) of these people that’s the alternative, not “they don’t need care at all”. Have you considered that perhaps a treatment, however objectionable you might find it, that puts a stop to suicide/self harm might, in the long run, actually be cheaper?
>
> I had a friend once who was a “cutter”. She regularly racked up six-digit hospital bills from her propensity to not only cut herself and swallow razor blades, but also to create third degree burns, all of it paid by taxpayers over the course of about 15 years where this was an almost annual circus (do the math). Yes, a seriously messed up individual, _definitely_ mentally ill, but the answer wasn’t to deny her treatment but to try different things until something was found that WORKED. I’m happy to say that something was, eventually, found and she’s hasn’t been a medical patient for about a quarter century, yay for psychiatry when it actually works. She wasn’t a transsexual, but maybe she’s one of the reasons I put “relieve suffering” ahead of “make me comfortable with this”.
>
> When someone is unhappy enough - regardless of cause - they are actively hurting themselves to that point any discomfort I might feel at an effective course of treatment is _nothing_ compared to alleviating the abyss of suffering that person is living in. I do understand that if you have never confronted such a thing in real life you might not understand it - and if you haven’t, I sincerely wish you _don’t_ have to confront the unvarnished reality of that sort of situation. I do, however, wish that more people would have empathy for the suffering rather than condemnation.
A person who cuts themself with a blade is mentally ill, but a person who wants to cut off their genitalia, perfectly fine, working, healthy genitalia is not mentally ill?
If a doctor gave cutting techniques to a cutter, to minimize scarring, the doctor would be enabling the patient just like doctors do with transgendered folks.
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/185 "2012-09-04T22:44:15Z")
> [@stevenova](#):
>
> A person who cuts themself with a blade is mentally ill, but a person who wants to cut off their genitalia, perfectly fine, working, healthy genitalia is not mentally ill?
>
> If a doctor gave cutting techniques to a cutter, to minimize scarring, the doctor would be enabling the patient just like doctors do with transgendered folks.
Start answering the questions people have been putting to you, stop setting up false dilemmas, learn the foundations of logic, and at least attempt to back up your bombastic assertions. You can start back on Page 3 and work your way forward at your own pace.
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### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/186 "2012-09-05T14:47:34Z")
> [@stevenova](#):
>
> A person who cuts themself with a blade is mentally ill, but a person who wants to cut off their genitalia, perfectly fine, working, healthy genitalia is not mentally ill?
>
> If a doctor gave cutting techniques to a cutter, to minimize scarring, the doctor would be enabling the patient just like doctors do with transgendered folks.
Do you really think it’s all about what’s between the legs? Are you so devoid of any sexual identity of your own that you have to look at yourself nude in a mirror every morning before you remember whether you’re more comfortable in a skirt or in pants? Do you need to reach down and give yourself a feel before you ask a woman out, to remind you of whether you actually want to date her or her brother? If that’s what life is like for you, it must be really frustrating. Me, I know what I am: I’m a straight male with the usual male plumbing, and I gotta say it’s convenient to have everything match. But I’d rather have a mixed-up self-image than no self-image at all.
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### Author:  [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/187 "2012-09-05T20:59:24Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#):
>
> Do you really think it’s all about what’s between the legs? Are you so devoid of any sexual identity of your own that you have to look at yourself nude in a mirror every morning before you remember whether you’re more comfortable in a skirt or in pants? Do you need to reach down and give yourself a feel before you ask a woman out, to remind you of whether you actually want to date her or her brother? If that’s what life is like for you, it must be really frustrating. Me, I know what I am: I’m a straight male with the usual male plumbing, and I gotta say it’s convenient to have everything match. But I’d rather have a mixed-up self-image than no self-image at all.
Good one!
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### Author:  [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)
#### Post date: [September 5, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/188 "2012-09-05T21:12:58Z")
Just ran across [this interesting story](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727.html)about a study on monkeys about sex and toy choice.
The researchers gave toy options to monkeys. Male monkeys picked trucks and balls, female monkeys picked dolls. These are monkeys, not human children, so human social influences are not a factor. There is a sex-related factor in toy type preferences.
How does it relate to this topic of transgender people? The results of the above studies indicates that there are differences in the two brain biochemistries between the sexes. If the brain biochemistries can show a difference based upon hormones, and hormones can get out of synch between the genetalia and the brain, then brain biochemistries can get out of synch with the genetalia. Ergo, evidence that supports that gender is more than your gonads.
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### Author:  [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)
#### Post date: [September 6, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/189 "2012-09-06T01:15:14Z")
> [@Irishman](#):
>
> Just ran across [this interesting story](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727.html)about a study on monkeys about sex and toy choice.
>
> The researchers gave toy options to monkeys. Male monkeys picked trucks and balls, female monkeys picked dolls. These are monkeys, not human children, so human social influences are not a factor. There is a sex-related factor in toy type preferences.
>
> How does it relate to this topic of transgender people? The results of the above studies indicates that there are differences in the two brain biochemistries between the sexes. If the brain biochemistries can show a difference based upon hormones, and hormones can get out of synch between the genetalia and the brain, then brain biochemistries can get out of synch with the genetalia. Ergo, evidence that supports that gender is more than your gonads.
Yeah, the toy test has been frustrating the hell out of certain types of doctrinaire feminist for nearly a century now. I hadn’t heard that it had been extended to monkeys, though.
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### Author:  [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)
#### Post date: [September 6, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/190 "2012-09-06T13:28:33Z")
If anyone has access to the study (“Sex differences in response to children’s toys in nonhuman primates” was the 2002 study), did the researchers account for demand characteristics? For monkeys I imagine it would take the form of food rewards for appropriately sex differentiated play, or even something subtle like smiling.
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### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [September 6, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/191 "2012-09-06T23:10:04Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#):
>
> If anyone has access to the study (“Sex differences in response to children’s toys in nonhuman primates” was the 2002 study), did the researchers account for demand characteristics? For monkeys I imagine it would take the form of food rewards for appropriately sex differentiated play, or even something subtle like smiling.
I downloaded it. The Procedures section says:
> [@](#):
>
> Three groups of animals were tested in the autumn and four the following spring. Each group received two or three toy preference trials separated by intervals of 1 week. (For 32 animals, torrential rains prevented the third trial.) The first trial was used to accustom the animals to the presence of the experimenter and the procedure (introductory trial). Data were collected on the subsequent trial or trials (test trials). For each trial, six toys were placed in the group cage, one at a time, in a random order. Each toy remained in the enclosure for 5 min. The six toys were a ball, a police car, a soft doll, a cooking pot, a picture book and a stuffed dog. These toys were categorized as ‘‘masculine’’ toys, ‘‘feminine’’ toys, or ‘‘neutral’’ toys on the basis of evidence that boys are more interested than girls in balls and cars (the ‘‘masculine’’ toy set), girls are more interested than boys in dolls and pots (the ‘‘feminine’’ toy set), and boys and girls are approximately equally interested in books and stuffed animals (the ‘‘neutral’’ toy set) (Berenbaum & Hines, 1992; Connor & Serbin, 1977; Maccoby & Jacklin, 1974). The six toys were selected because children in a broad age range categorize them as ‘‘masculine,’’ ‘‘feminine,’’ or ‘‘neutral’’ and, for those toys categorized as ‘‘masculine’’ or ‘‘feminine,’’ the sex difference in toy preferences is reliable and relatively large in children.
>
> During test trials, animals were videotaped from outside the enclosure. An observer provided a concurrent narrative of the animals’ identifying markings and behaviors to aid thescoring of the videotapes by independent raters. Reliability between raters was good (Cohen’s Kappa = .84, average of 15 animals). Videotapes were coded for the duration of each of the two behavioral responses (contact and approach) to each of the toys. Contact was coded when an animal (or animals) approached a toy and made physical contact with it. Approach was coded only when an animal moved within 2 m of a toy without contacting it physically—but not coded in instances when the toy was moved towards an animal. For example, if one animal picked up the toy and moved near a second animal, a contact was coded for the first animal but an approach was not coded for the second animal. Each animal received two scores (contact and approach), ranging from 0 to 300 s, for each toy on each trial.
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### Author:  [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)
#### Post date: [September 6, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/192 "2012-09-06T23:56:56Z")
> [@stevenova](#):
>
> Do you really think that someone who has a penis can be female?
A person with a penis is (for the sake of argument) indeed physically male. But that person (assuming an adult) may or may not be a man; that person may be a woman. Gender (man vs woman) is a mental construct, not a physical one (i.e., sex: male vs female).
How many times do we have to repeat this simple concept?
Powers &8^]
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### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/193 "2012-09-07T00:52:17Z")
> [@Powers](#):
>
> A person with a penis is (for the sake of argument) indeed physically male. But that person (assuming an adult) may or may not be a man; that person may be a woman. Gender (man vs woman) is a mental construct, not a physical one (i.e., sex: male vs female).
>
> How many times do we have to repeat this simple concept?
> Powers &8^]
As many times as you want, but it doesn’t make it true. Because even if one belived the whole gender/sex dichotomy, we still get the same range
man----woman and that is only rooted in biology.
---
### Author:  [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/194 "2012-09-07T07:01:39Z")
> [@Una Persson](#):
>
> I downloaded it.
Thanks for the information, sounds like a solid method. Perhaps they could have put their characterisations on a slightly firmer ground by operationalising their gender scale, perhaps by asking a sample whether certain toys were masculine, feminine or neutral and using whichever toys were rated highest in each category.
---
### Author:  [@SarahDot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahDot)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/195 "2012-09-07T14:13:18Z")
I am a transsexual woman, and I find this thread horribly depressing. Most people haven’t met a transsexual person, and that puts us at a severe disadvantage when it comes to acceptance and understanding. There aren’t even any real transsexuals on television that aren’t the son of Cher. I’m a comedian, and with a lot of luck, I may be able to change that a bit.
I consider transsexuality a birth defect. My mind is wired to be female. My body, to be male. The problem is that my mind is everything that makes me who I am–my soul if you will. My body is just the fleshy bit that keeps my mind alive. So if there is something to be changed, it is the body.
Don’t give me some crap about why can’t people want to be sharks. Humans are born with instincts that control how they act and who they emulate. My instincts _demand_ that I am female. I really have no choice in the matter. If I did, I would probably choose the road without the horrible internal and external strife. In fact, I tried to for 30 years. Didn’t stick.
Unfortunately, we don’t get the same sympathy as other people with birth defects. Surely, if God meant me to be male by giving me a penis, he also meant Joaquin Phoenix to have a cleft palate, and the surgery to correct it was an abomination unto the Lord.
I know I won’t change anyone’s mind about people like me here. People who think they are experts after getting a B- in Mrs. O’Mally’s 8th grade biology class aren’t the type of people that can be reasoned with. I just wanted to chime in, because I’m tired of people discussing transsexuals without talking to any actual transsexuals.
If anyone wants to see my work including a YouTube series I call Ask A Tranny, visit my website: [http://www.sarahmaywalt.com](http://www.sarahmaywalt.com)
Sarah
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/196 "2012-09-07T16:37:00Z")
> [@SarahDot](#):
>
> I am a transsexual woman, and I find this thread horribly depressing.
>
> …
>
> I know I won’t change anyone’s mind about people like me here. People who think they are experts after getting a B- in Mrs. O’Mally’s 8th grade biology class aren’t the type of people that can be reasoned with. I just wanted to chime in, because I’m tired of people discussing transsexuals without talking to any actual transsexuals.
With respect, you probably find it depressing because you didn’t read all of it. You didn’t see at all the lengthy and spirited defense put on by myself and others? You missed the times I and other spoke of knowing and even working to help counsel transsexuals?
Good grief, in the next week not only am I meeting a transwoman tomorrow to talk, but I’m playing pool with another and have a bowling date with a couple of others. I have talked, lived, played, and danced with more transwomen IRL than I can easily count, and 10 times that number online. Please don’t throw out blanket statements that no one here has “talked” to any “actual transsexuals.”
---
### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/197 "2012-09-07T16:45:55Z")
> [@SarahDot](#):
>
> I am a transsexual woman, and I find this thread horribly depressing. Most people haven’t met a transsexual person, and that puts us at a severe disadvantage when it comes to acceptance and understanding. There aren’t even any real transsexuals on television that aren’t the son of Cher. I’m a comedian, and with a lot of luck, I may be able to change that a bit.
>
> I consider transsexuality a birth defect. My mind is wired to be female. My body, to be male. The problem is that my mind is everything that makes me who I am–my soul if you will. My body is just the fleshy bit that keeps my mind alive. So if there is something to be changed, it is the body.
>
> Don’t give me some crap about why can’t people want to be sharks. Humans are born with instincts that control how they act and who they emulate. My instincts _demand_ that I am female. I really have no choice in the matter. If I did, I would probably choose the road without the horrible internal and external strife. In fact, I tried to for 30 years. Didn’t stick.
>
> Unfortunately, we don’t get the same sympathy as other people with birth defects. Surely, if God meant me to be male by giving me a penis, he also meant Joaquin Phoenix to have a cleft palate, and the surgery to correct it was an abomination unto the Lord.
>
> I know I won’t change anyone’s mind about people like me here. People who think they are experts after getting a B- in Mrs. O’Mally’s 8th grade biology class aren’t the type of people that can be reasoned with. I just wanted to chime in, because I’m tired of people discussing transsexuals without talking to any actual transsexuals.
>
> If anyone wants to see my work including a YouTube series I call Ask A Tranny, visit my website: [http://www.sarahmaywalt.com](http://www.sarahmaywalt.com)
>
> Sarah
It is interesting that you yourself call it a defect.
how can you decided if it’s your body or your mind that is the “wrong” one?
How is transexuality different from other dismorphic defects (using your own term)?
---
### Author:  [@SarahDot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahDot)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/198 "2012-09-07T18:08:14Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#):
>
> With respect, you probably find it depressing because you didn’t read all of it. You didn’t see at all the lengthy and spirited defense put on by myself and others? You missed the times I and other spoke of knowing and even working to help counsel transsexuals?
>
> Good grief, in the next week not only am I meeting a transwoman tomorrow to talk, but I’m playing pool with another and have a bowling date with a couple of others. I have talked, lived, played, and danced with more transwomen IRL than I can easily count, and 10 times that number online. Please don’t throw out blanket statements that no one here has “talked” to any “actual transsexuals.”
It is depressing, because it has to be defended, and that people and a columnist on a site that is supposed to be about fighting ignorance choose to be so ignorant.
The people defending are great! I have no problem with you, Una. It is depressing that myself and others have to argue for my mere existence.
You are awesome, Una. Carry on! 🙂
---
### Author:  [@SarahDot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SarahDot)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/199 "2012-09-07T18:31:11Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> It is interesting that you yourself call it a defect.
> how can you decided if it’s your body or your mind that is the “wrong” one?
> How is transexuality different from other dismorphic defects (using your own term)?
The question isn’t which one is “the wrong one.” The question is how are we going to treat the defect while A) reaching the best outcome possible and B) preserving the human consiousness under it all.
What do you suggest? A lobotomy? Whatever happened in utero, my mind is me. I could call it a “defect” or a “problem” or a “disorder” or an “anomaly” or even “a point on a spectrum,” but the issue is clear trans people have a great and unchangeable aversion to living as the gender suggested by their genitals.
The really sick thing is that life doesn’t have to be hard for us. It is people like you who try to trap us and pin us to a gender, often times going so far as to have us committed, that cause our great pain. If people could _let us be ourselves_ and treat us like _human beings_, a grand majority of our problems would be solved. We wouldn’t feel the need to ask honestly and logically if suicide might be the better option.
The other dismorphic events? Anorexia/bulimia is based on fear for instance. Treat the fear, fix the patient. Duh. No trauma caused me to be trans. In fact, most of my life’s trauma pushed me not to be. Didn’t work, and I wish people would stop trying.
Sarah
---
### Author:  [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)
#### Post date: [September 7, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/200 "2012-09-07T21:16:44Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> It is interesting that you yourself call it a defect.
> how can you decided if it’s your body or your mind that is the “wrong” one?
The question is partially academic, but the answer is evidenced by the fact that both historically and today, attempting to change the “mind” of transsexuals has a lower success rate - in some cases, abominably lower - than the path of hormone treatment and potentially SRS. Treating the body has a high rate of success for improving the self-image, emotions, mental abilities, depression, and other negative outcomes from gender dysphoria. Psychoanalysis and drug approaches can work with some, but are not nearly as effective in general.
From a personal experience, for nearly all transwomen I have known, starting hormone therapy has an enormous impact on their happiness and self-satisfaction, all for a $10/month Wal-Mart prescription which has very few negative side effects (even the risk of DVT is recently being found to be diminishing with the greater use of sub-lingual and trans-dermal 17B-estradiol.) In some cases the effect has been profound and lasting, like an entirely new person stepped out who is suddenly happy and full of life. This is an improvement in mood and patient health which I have never witnessed among those who choose to try antidepressants and psychological help. Hard statistics on the efficacy of treatments were presented by myself on Page 1.
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