# Are Transsexuals Mentally Ill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [August 17, 2012, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759 "2012-08-17T09:13:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/281 "2012-09-20T14:32:49Z")
Also relevant: **The Silent Soldiers Who Are Still ‘Unfit to Serve’** > [@](#): > > As the rest of the country commemorates the first year of open service by gay, lesbian and bisexual service members, transgender soldiers still serve in silence. While “don’t ask, don’t tell” repeal opened the door for LGB service members, the U.S. military considers transgender identity to be a mental health disorder that makes one ineligible to serve. > **[Meet The Silent Soldiers Who Are Still Called Unfit to Serve](https://www.advocate.com/politics/military/2012/09/19/meet-silent-soldiers-who-are-still-called-unfit-serve?page=0%2C0)** > > It's now OK to be gay in the U.S. military, but The Advocate spoke with several transgender people on why policy means they must remain in the closet. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/282 "2012-09-20T19:41:39Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > For God’s sake, why hasn’t this flagrant traitor been impeached? He’s from Oklahoma. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/283 "2012-09-21T16:45:38Z")
> [@Powers](#): > > Relevant to this topic: > > **Oklahoma judge refuses to let men planning sex-change operations have feminine names** Powers &8^] As I said in another thread, I’m shocked he didn’t find the petitioner in contempt for violating the Deuteronomy prohibiting against wearing female clothing. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/284 "2012-10-23T11:53:41Z")
A panel has recommended post menopausal women NOT take HRT as the risks outweigh the benefits. This is for women who have actual physical problems due to the lessoning of estrogen in their bodies. So do you think it’s okay for MEN to take HRT even though they have no physical problem that even requires it, when doctores recommend women not take it due to the health risks? > **[Task Force again warns againt hormone therapy for post-menopausal women](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/task-force-again-warns-againt-hormone-therapy-for-post-menopausal-women/2012/10/22/da668ce2-1c90-11e2-9cd5-b55c38388962_story.html?ctab=all_&)** > > A national board of doctors recommended Monday that post-menopausal women not take hormone-replacement therapy to prevent chronic disease, because the health risks that HRT poses outweigh its likely b... ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/285 "2012-10-23T12:54:07Z")
First off, the impacts of hormones on transsexuals have already been discussed, or you could have looked them up yourself. Hormone therapy for transsexuals, especially 17B-estradiol, has been proven relatively safe, with even the potential for DVT now being thought to be very highly over-rated. Breast cancer is highly rare in transsexuals, as are other cancers and negative cardiovascular effects. Increased mortality exists but it greatly overweighed by the increased risk of suicide, homicide, and HIV/AIDS among transsexuals. The reasons for which were previously discussed. Second, nearly every drug known has side effects and risk factors associated with it, even aspirin. The question to ask with any drug is, does it relieve more suffering and do more good than it has the potential to cause harm? And in the case of hormone treatment for transsexuals, the answer is “absolutely.” Third, HRT for post-menopausal women is not the same as hormone therapy for male to female transsexuals. If the reasons are unclear…(shrug). Fourth, there is a physical reason for hormone therapy. The physical differences between the brains of transsexuals and cisgendered persons has already been discussed, although there is disagreement by some as to the magnitude of those physical differences. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/286 "2012-10-23T13:19:09Z")
What are the LONG TERM studies on men taking female hormones? kind of hard to believe it’s “safe” for men to take hormones not meant for their bodies but it’s unsafe for women to take them. Politics and political correctness getting ahead of safety once again for a liberal feel good moment? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/287 "2012-10-23T13:41:31Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > What are the LONG TERM studies on men taking female hormones? kind of hard to believe it’s “safe” for men to take hormones not meant for their bodies but it’s unsafe for women to take them. Politics and political correctness getting ahead of safety once again for a liberal feel good moment? First off, drop the wounded political correctness banner; it really doesn’t suit this topic. Transsexualism has **fuck-all** to do with liberalism and political correctness, it has to do with the **lives, health, and livelihood of your fellow human beings.** Second, I told you that it was previously discussed. Please re-read the thread before asking questions which have already been addressed. Or did you intend this to be a rant and mean for this to be in the Pit? I encourage you to start a Pit thread if so. Third, be aware that hormone regimens and treatments and formulations are not the same, even among women on HRT I believe there were at least 6 or 8 different formulations of hormones which were commonly prescribed, all of them with different levels of risk. Most critically, the difference between ethinyl estradiol and 17B-estradiol. Which was previously discussed. Finally, from page one of the thread you are reading: > [@](#): > > Many express concern over the long-term impacts of taking large doses of hormones, but the risks appear to be low. Study 9, one of the largest studies conducted to date on the subject, consisting of 816 transwomen and 293 transmen over more than 10,000 patient-years showed the overall mortality rates were not significantly different than the general population. A 20-fold increase in blood clots was seen for transwomen, but almost all cases were due to oral ethinyl estradiol intake, which is no longer advised for patients at risk (endocrinologists I’ve interviewed who specialize in transsexual patients say they stopped prescribing ethinyl estradiol a long time ago). Study 12, a recent 10-year study of 95 transsexuals showed no evidence of significant health effects from hormones, and Study 13, a larger 20-year survey showed no significant differences in mortality, but for transwomen who had taken ethinyl estradiol, again there was a significant increase in blood clots. Study 14 claims that despite fears of breast, pituitary, and prostate cancer, transsexual hormone-related tumors are rare. A more recent study, which (caveat) I have not fully reviewed, claims that the risk of deep vein thrombus for transwomen is even less than previously thought, on the order of about a 7% relative risk increase. I can provide more citations, provided I don’t think I’m being trolled. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/288 "2012-10-23T14:00:28Z")
Political correctness has state it’s not a mental illness to take dangerous an unecessary hormones and to cut off healthy body parts. How long until it’s hate speech for me to say that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/289 "2012-10-23T14:15:26Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > Political correctness has state it’s not a mental illness to take dangerous an unecessary hormones and to cut off healthy body parts. How long until it’s hate speech for me to say that? [So you think deliberately putting harmful things into your own body is a mental illness?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=669702) ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/290 "2012-10-23T14:19:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [So you think deliberately putting harmful things into your own body is a mental illness?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=669702) So I guess meat eating need sto be banned. How about sex? especially anal sex? Guess what, someone can quit smoking, or not even die from smoking, but you can’t get your dick back after you cut it off. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/291 "2012-10-23T15:22:33Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > Political correctness has state it’s not a mental illness to take dangerous an unecessary hormones and to cut off healthy body parts. How long until it’s hate speech for me to say that? You have no factual basis to claim that hormone therapy is either dangerous nor unnecessary. You ignore the parallel of other cosmetic surgeries. You ignore the citations given and seem to be pushing some sort of intolerant and ignorant agenda. How unfortunate. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/292 "2012-10-23T15:27:46Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > Guess what, someone can quit smoking, or not even die from smoking, but you can’t get your dick back after you cut it off. Nor can one convince a transphobic hater to change. In all my life debating the issue I have never once interacted with a transphobe who ever changed their opinion towards one of behaving tolerantly and decently towards transsexuals. It’s like arguing with moon landing hoaxers or birthers. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/293 "2012-10-23T15:54:35Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > but you can’t get your dick back after you cut it off. Huh. Maybe **Una** was on to something with the ‘castration anxiety’ argument. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/294 "2012-10-23T16:06:12Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > Guess what, someone can quit smoking, or not even die from smoking, but you can’t get your dick back after you cut it off. You can relax, no one is coming to cut your dick off. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/295 "2012-10-23T16:08:40Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Nor can one convince a transphobic hater to change. In all my life debating the issue I have never once interacted with a transphobe who ever changed their opinion towards one of behaving tolerantly and decently towards transsexuals. It’s like arguing with moon landing hoaxers or birthers. Do I also “hate” bulemics if I don’t think doctors should enable their mental illness by giving them laxatives or teaching them vomiting techniques that won’t damage their teeth as much? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/296 "2012-10-23T16:14:55Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > Do I also “hate” bulemics if I don’t think doctors should enable their mental illness by giving them laxatives or teaching them vomiting techniques that won’t damage their teeth as much? [del]What the _hell_ are you talking about?[/del]Ignoring off-topic rant/hijack. ---
**Author:** ![stevenova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@stevenova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stevenova)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/297 "2012-10-23T16:38:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [del]What the _hell_ are you talking about?[/del]Ignoring off-topic rant/hijack. It’s called an ANALOGY. it’s how you logically make an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/298 "2012-10-23T16:49:25Z")
> [@stevenova](#): > > It’s called an ANALOGY. it’s how you logically make an argument. You mean like the one I linked to in post #289? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/299 "2012-10-24T05:32:11Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The evidence seems very clear. > > Transsexuals exist. They’re here, they are fellow human beings on this earth who want simply to be treated like fellow human beings. This is not in dispute.[…] I want to say, that for me it’s a philosophical argument over a medical one. I absolutely agree that transsexuals, like everyone else should be treated with respect. I agree that, at present, the best treatments involve aligning the body with the mind – and since it brings them comfort and makes them happy they should use it (and further, that we should refer to a mtf as “her” and an ftm as “him”). Perhaps “mentally ill” isn’t the term that I should hold on to. Now I realize that what I’m about to talk about it **purely** academic, and philosophical, that’s what I’m intending. But to me the question comes down to **in what cases, and to what degree, when there is a mind/body disconnect is the body or the mind the true determiner of reality?** Like I said, it’s purely a philosophical argument. I think it’s the most **ethical** to fully support a trans person’s treatment, and refer to them by the name and pronoun they choose. I consider that argument resolved, case closed. I do think that the philosophical question, though, of which is “real” is, even if useless and unimportant, interesting to think about at least. Perhaps the question could be formulated as: “If there were magic pills that could switch the mind’s gender, and an equally hassle-free pill that could switch the body – would one treatment be more correct than the other?” ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759/300 "2012-10-24T15:19:54Z")
If there were a magic pills that could make either change occur in such a hassle-free manner, I don’t know there would be a “right” answer, just that person’s choice. But I suspect if _I_ found my identity at odds with my body and had the choice of a simple pill to change each, _I_ would probably keep my inward, personal self (i.e. identity) the same and make my outward self (i.e. body) match. Because it’s my _self_.\* A more challenging question is if we managed to come up with a pill that would magically change the mind’s gender, but don’t have a magic fix for the body. Then the choice is a simple change to the gender, or a BFD to tinker with the body and hope it eventually sort of resembles the sex the person wants to be. In that situation, how does the primacy of the identity stack against the realities of the effort involved? ## That’s probably a philosophical discussion that could be had in another thread. For now, we don’t have any magic pills. - Here’s another analogy and strange philosophical question that helps demonstrate my point. What if there were a magical pill that would allow you to change your mental ethnicity, such that instead of being a middle class WASP you could transform into an ethnic Serb, or an African tribesman, or a Japanese? In other words, your social cues and expectations, your speech patterns, etc would be morphed to make you act and feel like that ethnicity. Would you opt for such a pill? Try it as a lark? Pop around to see what life is like? Or would you keep preference for your original mind? Can you guarantee you’d ever be able to find your “self” back, if you didn’t like the change? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-transsexuals-mentally-ill/631759.md?page=16)