# Are Unions Good or Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219 "2011-06-03T17:44:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/41 "2011-06-04T07:32:51Z")
\*huge to me that those kids hadn’t dropped out yet. not huge relative to the other classes i had. sorry if that was confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/42 "2011-06-04T12:00:12Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Of course, there are also unions that are simply crap, like when I joined a union (and paid dues) in order to get a job that paid minimum wage, the state minimum number of breaks, and no benefits. You are perhaps aware that the minimum wage, mandatory breaks, paid overtime beyond 40 hrs/ week, safe working conditions, workman’s comp for those injured and a host of other “non benefits” are all a direct result of organized labor’s efforts, right? It is in their interest to make sure that union shops don’t have to compete against, just as an example, child labor, so they lobby hard for minimum workplace standards that benefit ALL workers. It really is a “commons” situation. In many cases a union can do significant good just by making sure the company is held to legal minimum labor standards. WalMart has gotten in trouble over requiring uncompensated overtime, gender discrimination, etc. I know a couple of machinists who lost fingers in union shops. The one who lost an arm, and the one who got a fork lift tine through his leg were working in non-union shops with undocumented co-workers and zero OSHA compliance, and had to hire lawyers just to get their hospital bills paid. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/43 "2011-06-04T12:31:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Unions shift the balance of power away from management and towards workers. In an industry where the workers already have sufficient bargaining power, unions give them too much power and make the industry less efficient. In an industry where workers have too little bargaining power, unions can give them a voice, reasonable working conditions, and livable wages. Do you have any real life examples of this excess bargaining power? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/44 "2011-06-04T15:39:54Z")
Union bargaining power against corporate power. I feel sorry for the poor corporations. they have such little defense against the powerful unions. I suppose that is why unions are disappearing so fast. Wages have been slashed and benefits cut . Yep union power is well and strong. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/45 "2011-06-04T16:04:43Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > :dubious: > > Please cite where any current Republican office holders seek removal of child labor laws and the repeal of anti-trust laws that prohibit monopolies. Please cite to antitrust laws “that prohibit monopolies.” They don’t. Having a monopoly is just dandy under antitrust law. What is prohibited is illegally obtaining or maintaining said monopoly. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/46 "2011-06-04T17:47:26Z")
[http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/missouri-senator-wants-repeal-child-labor-laws/](http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/missouri-senator-wants-repeal-child-labor-laws/) There are plenty of right wingers pushing for ending child labor laws. this is just one example. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/47 "2011-06-04T20:57:58Z")
Take the Teamsters Union. Under leaders like James Hoffa, Frank Fitzsimmons, Jacky Presser…the Mob stole millions from the membership. Jacky Presser was such a thief that he demanded kickbacks from any business that did work for the union-even the printing company that printed official union newspapers had to pay him bribes. The union retirement fund “lent” money to build Mob-owned hotesl and resorts-and nobdy seemed bothered that union money was goindg to criminals. Yet, the rank and file had to “pay up and shut up”…ot bad things might happen tpo them (you could get your legs broken for questioning things). why should you be made to join a corrupt union? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/48 "2011-06-04T21:26:26Z")
That’s not an argument against unions, it’s an argument against corruption. I’m not sure how many arguments there are _for_ corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/49 "2011-06-04T21:26:49Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > why should you be made to join a corrupt union? You can’t be made to join any union in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/50 "2011-06-04T21:29:56Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > You can’t be made to join any union in the United States. Just pay dues in some places. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/51 "2011-06-05T02:36:33Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Just pay dues in some places. Cite? ETA: AFAIK, this is entirely false. I’m not aware of anywhere in the US where a non-member can be legally forced to pay union dues. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/52 "2011-06-05T02:54:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Cite? > > ETA: AFAIK, this is entirely false. I’m not aware of anywhere in the US where a non-member can be legally forced to pay union dues. You may want to google “Union Agency Fee” before making that claim, there are many places you are forced to pay the Union even if you are not a member. Of course there are lots of states that are not “right to work” states, so there are entire industries that you will not get a job in unless you join the union. In these states if you quit the union your employer is required to fire you. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/53 "2011-06-05T03:12:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You may want to google “Union Agency Fee” before making that claim, there are many places you are forced to pay the Union even if you are not a member. > > Of course there are lots of states that are not “right to work” states, so there are entire industries that you will not get a job in unless you join the union. > > In these states if you quit the union your employer is required to fire you. Sure ,I suppose to you it would be fair if you got the benefits and pay the unions fought for, without contributing in any fashion whatsoever? Factories can be dangerous places to work. Unions fought to make working conditions safer and to get financial support for workers hurt on the job. The original union organizers were beaten and some of them killed. The companies did not just generously give decent conditions for workers. That is not reality. We are going back to the days of corporations having all the power. The impact on wages , benefits and security is unmistakable. They are defeating every union in the country. I suppose some of you even believe the financial crisis was caused by nurse and teacher unions. Funny, I thought it was overpaid and under regulated bankers. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/54 "2011-06-05T03:17:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You may want to google “Union Agency Fee” before making that claim, there are many places you are forced to pay the Union even if you are not a member. > > Of course there are lots of states that are not “right to work” states, so there are entire industries that you will not get a job in unless you join the union. > > In these states if you quit the union your employer is required to fire you. The assertion was that non-members can be forced to pay union dues. You haven’t shown that to be true. I see no problem with non-members paying unions for the services they utilize. Why shouldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/55 "2011-06-05T03:32:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Sure ,I suppose to you it would be fair if you got the benefits and pay the unions fought for, without contributing in any fashion whatsoever? > Factories can be dangerous places to work. Unions fought to make working conditions safer and to get financial support for workers hurt on the job. > The original union organizers were beaten and some of them killed. The companies did not just generously give decent conditions for workers. That is not reality. We are going back to the days of corporations having all the power. The impact on wages , benefits and security is unmistakable. They are defeating every union in the country. I suppose some of you even believe the financial crisis was caused by nurse and teacher unions. Funny, I thought it was overpaid and under regulated bankers. And the Financial crisis has what to do with my statement? Unions did do good things for workers in the past however they are now larger and just as “evil” as those corporations you speak of. They actively support mediocrity now by restricting your ability to be reward for hard work, choosing to typically only reward for time of service. I am not sure that now, when we have good labor laws etc… that I should be forced to pay to be held back in a knowledge based careers due to advances organized labor made in history? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/56 "2011-06-05T03:39:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The assertion was that non-members can be forced to pay union dues. You haven’t shown that to be true. > > I see no problem with non-members paying unions for the services they utilize. Why shouldn’t they? So you are saying that forced membership in a union as a condition of employment in an industry is not being “forced” Or that being forced to pay money to an organization that may or may not be working towards your goals as a condition of employment is not being forced? I think we have a difference of opinion on what being forced is. I can not think of another situation in life where if you said “you have to pay me to have a job” where it would not be considered coercion except for taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/57 "2011-06-05T03:41:02Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Unions did do good things for workers in the past however they are now larger and just as “evil” as those corporations you speak of. While the “evil” part is purely your opinion, the “larger” part is not, and I do not think you can back up your assertion with any hard facts. > [@rat avatar](#): > > They actively support mediocrity now by restricting your ability to be reward for hard work, choosing to typically only reward for time of service. You said “they” so presumably you are able to provide us with the names (and rules pertaining to your statement) of unions which “actively support mediocrity”, right? :dubious: Be sure to point out in their contracts how they “only reward for time of service”. > [@rat avatar](#): > > I am not sure that now, when we have good labor laws etc… that I should be forced to pay to be held back in a knowledge based careers due to advances organized labor made in history? As I’ve said, you cannot be forced to pay union dues. But if you utilize the services a union offers, why shouldn’t you pay for it? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/58 "2011-06-05T03:47:17Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So you are saying that forced membership in a union as a condition of employment in an industry is not being “forced” I’m saying that you have failed to show that anyone can be forced into union membership. You will continue to fail to show this, too. Do you know why? Because you cannot legally be forced to join a union, not in the US. > [@rat avatar](#): > > Or that being forced to pay money to an organization that may or may not be working towards your goals as a condition of employment is not being forced? > > I think we have a difference of opinion on what being forced is. You cannot be forced to pay any money as a condition of employment. Your continued assertion of this will continue to be false. However, again I ask: if you utilize an organization’s services, why shouldn’t you have to pay for them? ETA: > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I can not think of another situation in life where if you said “you have to pay me to have a job” where it would not be considered coercion except for taxes. You still haven’t provided a cite for any union saying this, nor will you. You want to know why? I’ll tell you: because it’s illegal for a union to say that. It simply doesn’t happen. You’re incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/59 "2011-06-05T03:51:02Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > While the “evil” part is purely your opinion, the “larger” part is not, and I do not think you can back up your assertion with any hard facts. > > You said “they” so presumably you are able to provide us with the names (and rules pertaining to your statement) of unions which “actively support mediocrity”, right? :dubious: Be sure to point out in their contracts how they “only reward for time of service”. > > As I’ve said, you cannot be forced to pay union dues. But if you utilize the services a union offers, why shouldn’t you pay for it? Go back a few pages, I already provided cites on teacher performance in ridged pay school districts. There is no incentive to perform in the ridged pay structure of a union, working harder does not improve your career path. But if you think that closed shops are not a way of forcing membership any payments to the union we will never agree, if they take your ability to work and earn money away it is forced. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/60 "2011-06-05T03:53:47Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > ETA: > You still haven’t provided a cite for any union saying this, nor will you. You want to know why? I’ll tell you: because it’s illegal for a union to say that. It simply doesn’t happen. You’re incorrect. Google closed shop, union shop and agency shop Have a good night I’m done responding to you until you take the effort to learn even the basics of working in union shops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219.md?page=4)