# Are Unions Good or Bad?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [June 3, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219 "2011-06-03T17:44:55Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 2\
**Page:** 7

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**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\
**Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/121 "2011-06-08T06:46:24Z")

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> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> I was reading about the “transplant” auto mfgs. in the USA-firms like Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, etc. These places are generally in southern states (“right to work”) and they seem to pay comparable wages as the unionized plants.  
> The big difference is the huge inefficiencies introduced by the UAW-you have to classsify everybody by what jobs they can do-plus you have the shop steawrds who get paid, but do no direct work. My question: given that the non-union plants seem to work well (and everybody gets cross-trained for different jobs), it seems that the non-union places are in fact better places to work. What is the attraction of a union then? I think it is crazy to shut a line down because a certain job guy isn’t available.

Are you naive enough to believe they would pay UAW wages and benefits if the UAW weren’t bargaining for those in union plants?

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**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\
**Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-good-or-bad/584219/122 "2011-06-10T02:46:21Z")

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> [@rat\_avatar](#):
>
> I grew up in Wyoming, I had an English teacher who was known to be ineffective when my father had her in 1958, she was still known when I had her in 1988. She retired in 2008.
> 
> The State University would actually make students who had taken classed from her take remedial English.
> 
> I personally remember several attempts to lay her off but the union came to bat for her every time.
> 
> Getting rid of the very small number of bad teachers is just as difficult. We are not talking about teachers who are not meeting horrid programs like no child left behind, we are talking about teachers that are known to just be bad.
> 
> Making the kids that get those teachers deal with the loss of opportunity to learn and forcing those ill prepared students onto other teachers who are good seems unfair to me but the Unions find it important to fight for every one of them.
> 
> IMHO most teachers are trying hard, but this is about unions, I think these are examples that show how they can be “Bad”

Your story about the ineffective English teacher only shows that the school had an ineffective principal for a very long time. Poor teachers can be dismissed if the administrator does his/her job properly. All that is required is documentation.

And yes, the union does find it important to fight for every one of them [ineffective teachers]. Just as our justice system finds it important that even the most heinous criminals are defended. Everyone has an opportunity to be heard. If the administrator could prove that the teacher were ineffective, she would have been fired. The fact that she taught there for FIFTY (!) (really??!!) years would indicate that either she wasn’t really ineffective or that school had ineffective leadership for a very long time.

And, finally, I am a member of the National Education Association, the largest of the teacher’s unions. However, I am in a “right to work” state, so our union is rather weak. We are seeing the results in the devastating attacks on public education in this year’s legislature. Our schools would be better if we had stronger union laws.

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