# Are Unions Obsolete? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343 "2013-10-15T20:09:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/41 "2013-10-24T11:09:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > To the extent that unions are obsolete, it’s largely because of the improvement in pay and working conditions that has been achieved by unions throughout history. If all unions ceased to exist tonight, nothing especially bad would happen tomorrow, but eventually, working conditions and rights would be eroded back to what they were like during the Industrial Revolution. Unions are largely obsolete because most jobs are now white collar jobs where the distinction between “management” and “labor” is less defined. Working conditions and rights would not erode back to the Industrial Revolution because most jobs aren’t Industrial Revolution jobs. Most union jobs I encounter seem to either be maintenance staff for large office buildings and tradesmen (the people with the giant inflatable rats) or employees of municipalities. Unions tend not to attract the top employees because the top employees tend to care about other aspects of their job more than going home at 5 on the dot and not having a lot of work to do. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/42 "2013-10-24T22:19:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Some do. Most don’t. > > “Right to work” means unions can’t force employees to join the union if they don’t want to. You’re thinking of “at will” employment. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/43 "2013-10-24T22:24:46Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Some do. Most don’t. _Successful_ tech startups. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/44 "2013-11-04T00:43:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > What happened? > > Labor conditions among companies is drastically better than it was 100 years ago, even 50 years ago. > > New Employees don’t perceive the value of being a member of a union. Most people believe they would rather bank on their own contributions to insure job security, than play their hand with the masses which promote seniority over contribution. > > snip. There’s more to it: > **[El Super employees want fair wages, sick leave and respect](https://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-1103-lopez-elsuper-20131103-column.html)** > > The grocery store chain's profits are up; its head is a billionaire. But, workers say, those successes have come at their expense. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/45 "2013-11-04T06:38:58Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > What happened? > > Labor conditions among companies is drastically better than it was 100 years ago, even 50 years ago. 100 years ago? Definitely. 50 years ago? Not so sure about that one. [url=[File:Productivity and Real Median Family Income Growth 1947-2009.png - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Productivity_and_Real_Median_Family_Income_Growth_1947-2009.png)] This graph shows income growth versus productivity from 1947 - 2011. In 1961 income growth tracked productivity. Today? Not at all. I read very few complaints about working conditions (though we didn’t have OSHA.) I did live in the north, so the south might have been worse. > [@](#): > > New Employees don’t perceive the value of being a member of a union. Most people believe they would rather bank on their own contributions to insure job security, than play their hand with the masses which promote seniority over contribution. Absolutely. Most people think they are above average, so the strategy of convincing more or less everyone that unions are just for losers is a successful one. Maybe that is why most actors are happy to be in SAG. Models, who don’t have a union, get treated pretty poorly, sometimes having a hard time getting paid and having to go to mass go-sees. Union acting jobs paid immediately, and the union kept track of residuals owed. Worth every penny in dues. But actors can’t fool themselves about being superior. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/46 "2013-11-05T14:11:28Z")
Unions are obsolete these days for 2 reasons. 1st is that 100 years ago working conditions and compensation were truly terrible and unions were needed to give clout to make the change to safe working conditions, hours of work, compensation, including health care. These changes for the most part have been accomplished. Therefore 2nd is that since Unions have been so successful on #1 above, therefore they now exist on a lie that people can see through. The lie is that we (the Union) will require employers to pay above market rates for the union members and there will be no long term effects or detriments. This is not so, and most understand this both inside and outside the unions. The pendulum that once was in the unions favor is now way on the other side and is being yanked back to the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/47 "2013-11-05T15:00:14Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > There’s more to it: > > [El Super employees want fair wages, sick leave and respect](http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-1103-lopez-elsuper-20131103,0,805850.column#axzz2jdJJGbTU) I’m not going to bother to read your linked article if you can’t be bothered to at least give me a salient quote from it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/48 "2013-11-05T15:12:15Z")
We need unions or something like them now more than ever. American workers are overworked and underpaid. Wages have flatlined for decades while corporate profits go up, and the share of US wealth goes to the one percent while the middle class and the lower class declines. I think old-line unions have not kept up with the times. Their attitude has been “I’m all right, jack,” fighting only for their membership and ignoring all else, whereas they SHOULD be thinking about the benefit of ALL workers, for their own good. I personally have been put off by unions because of the involvement of the Mafia in the Teamster’s Unions and some other large unions. What do I care if it’s the Mafia or the corporate bosses that are looting my pension fund? Neither works for me. People say that the Mafia is no longer involved in unions, and some unions it was never involved in, but somehow I doubt that either the Mafia or the unions that are involved with the Mafia are eager to publicize their activities, so they still could be. I think what is needed is a large trade association for service workers generally. Something like the AARP, only for anyone involved in a service job. The workers would pay dues monthly or annually, but with employees in the tens or hundreds of millions, this would amount to enough money to really bring some clout to Washington. (Let’s face it, money is all that counts there.) Even without the power of collective bargaining, such a group could do a great deal to improve the condition of service workers generally, and they are the people being the most vigorously screwed by our corporate overlords right now. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/49 "2013-11-05T17:39:33Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not going to bother to read your linked article if you can’t be bothered to at least give me a salient quote from it. El Super employees want fair wages, sick leave and respect The grocery store chain’s profits are up; its head is a billionaire. But, workers say, those successes have come at their expense. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/50 "2013-11-05T17:55:53Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > El Super employees want fair wages, sick leave and respect > > The grocery store chain’s profits are up; its head is a billionaire. But, workers say, those successes have come at their expense. Well, yes, makes the point of the need for unions or something like them very nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/51 "2013-11-05T18:01:50Z")
Making the beast with two backs ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/52 "2013-11-05T18:52:32Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Making the beast with two backs Totally the wrong thread! Oops! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/53 "2013-11-05T20:42:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > We need unions or something like them now more than ever. More than ever? Really? This kind of hyperbole weakens your position. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/54 "2013-11-05T22:58:28Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > More than ever? Really? This kind of hyperbole weakens your position. Hyperbole? Not really. We’re living in the time of the greatest wealth inequality since the Gilded Age, hours are going up for those employed, there are plenty of unemployed, wages have not kept pace with productivity for decades. Granted, child labor isn’t a big problem right now, but otherwise, American workers really need to get together and fight for their rights. Which they don’t seem at all interested in doing, probably because they’re the same dumbasses that voted for Bush in 2004. And if things need to get a lot worse before they will get together, well, the one thing you can be sure of is that until they do get together, things will CONTINUE to get worse. Now that employers have learned just how at their mercy employees are, they’ll keep piling on the abuses and cutting the wages until the tipping point is reached. I suspect things may get rather nasty once that happens. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/55 "2013-11-06T02:26:40Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > Is that a desirable thing? > > Ok; I’ve never been a member of a Union. But here’s my opinion on the matter: > > 1. I don’t want my relationship with my management to be confrontational. It seems to be that the Union message is always “us vs them”, but the reality is that both labor and management are responsible for the success of the company, and the success of the company benefits both equally. (Or, at least equally enough.) So why should we be competing with each other instead of our external competition? Sound counter-productive to me; I don’t work under Mr. Burns from the Simpsons or some other cartoon character, I work under smart people I respect. > > 2. I’m a skilled technical worker. As any skilled technical worker can tell you, the difference between a good technical worker and a bad one is 10:1 or more. Every job I’ve had, I’ve worked with people who are simply not up to the work, and even though I’ve worked fewer hours I’ve been twice as productive as them. So why would I want to collectively bargain? I’m much better off bargaining on my own, since I’m more valuable to the company than my co-workers\*. > > 3. I can’t recall the last time I’ve heard of a Union do something positive. They are certainly not in control of their message at the moment. My mother, a member of the educational Union in my State, constantly complained about how useless they were. [News stories about small companies being forced to Unionize against their will](http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/07/judge-shuts-down-daytons-forced-unionization-of-independent-day-care-workers/) because of some government lobbying make an impression. Easily debunked Union propaganda like [this specimen I took on a few years ago](http://blakeyrat.com/2008/03/a-critical-reading-of-the-news-faa-criticized-in-report-on-airline-parts/) don’t help at all. > > 4. All of the pro-Union arguments I hear on various web forums equate to, “Unions got you higher wages! Unions got you safer workplaces! Unions got you more vacation time!” Yeah they did-- 70 years ago. A DC-3 was a revolutionary aircraft 70 years ago. I wouldn’t fly one today. > > \*) Note: this is probably untrue, but it’s my perception and perception matters as much as fact. I don’t like the confrontation dynamic either. I’ve been at the negotiating table. But, per my post #29, we were left with no choice. The college districts I’ve dealt with made it clear that they preferred all faculty and staff to be quiet and accept whatever was doled out to them over the years. That’s how/why we ended up with a union and collective bargaining. Fortunately, my unit has done far more good than bad regarding its members. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/56 "2013-11-06T02:33:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Hyperbole? Not really. We’re living in the time of the greatest wealth inequality since the Gilded Age, hours are going up for those employed, there are plenty of unemployed, wages have not kept pace with productivity for decades. Granted, child labor isn’t a big problem right now, but otherwise, American workers really need to get together and fight for their rights. Which they don’t seem at all interested in doing, probably because they’re the same dumbasses that voted for Bush in 2004. And if things need to get a lot worse before they will get together, well, the one thing you can be sure of is that until they do get together, things will CONTINUE to get worse. Now that employers have learned just how at their mercy employees are, they’ll keep piling on the abuses and cutting the wages until the tipping point is reached. I suspect things may get rather nasty once that happens. This is happening all over the place, from what I’ve been hearing. I hear it from friends and neighbors on a regular basis, and it’s in the newspapers too. Employers feel free to overwork and underpay/not pay employees, then tell them they’d better not complain or they’re out. So the workers stay at their lousy jobs, take the abuse, and suffer for it because it’s either that or unemployment. Something’s gotta give. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/57 "2013-11-06T16:23:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Hyperbole? Not really. We’re living in the time of the greatest wealth inequality since the Gilded Age, hours are going up for those employed, there are plenty of unemployed, wages have not kept pace with productivity for decades. Granted, child labor isn’t a big problem right now, but otherwise, American workers really need to get together and fight for their rights. Which they don’t seem at all interested in doing, probably because they’re the same dumbasses that voted for Bush in 2004. And if things need to get a lot worse before they will get together, well, the one thing you can be sure of is that until they do get together, things will CONTINUE to get worse. Now that employers have learned just how at their mercy employees are, they’ll keep piling on the abuses and cutting the wages until the tipping point is reached. I suspect things may get rather nasty once that happens. Today’s work environment is nowhere near that of the 1920’s and 30’s. Mandatory work week hours, minimum wage, and OSHA mitigate much of the problems that unions had to tackle back in the day. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/58 "2013-11-06T16:41:09Z")
[quote=“hansel, post:2, topic:671343”] My boss in the U.S. a decade ago asked me to give him a brief presentation on the decline in union membership and why they seemed to have waned generally in the U.S., except in their core sectors. I came up with the following after some reading and googling: [list=1] [li]A lot of the functions unions traditionally handled, or started by handling, have been taken over federally. Between OSHA and the NLRB, many workplace issues are now handled outside the union, removing a key role for having or joining a union.[/li][/QUOTE] This one is completely wrong. Well, not completely wrong - it’s true that OSHA subsumed a number of functions that unions used to handle. The NLRB, conversely, has not taken over any issue from unions; it’s there to consider their claims. The NLRB _has no jurisdiction_ over non-union matters - either those raised by existing unions, or those arising from attempts to form one. It would be fair to say that _other_ agencies have taken over some union functions, such as the EEOC and state administrative boards which handle similar claims. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/59 "2013-11-06T16:55:41Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > Today’s work environment is nowhere near that of the 1920’s and 30’s. Mandatory work week hours, minimum wage, and OSHA mitigate much of the problems that unions had to tackle back in the day. See the L.A. Times article linked to in post #34. Higher quotas, more work, more unpaid overtime, more exhausted and underpaid workers. Those are the conditions today in many, though certainly not all, workplaces. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/60 "2013-11-06T17:22:29Z")
In a market as large and complex as ours there will always be problems and you will always be able to find something that is worse than it used to be. However, to claim that today’s labor conditions are anything near what they were 100 years ago is silly hyperbole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343.md?page=4)