# Are Unions Obsolete? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343 "2013-10-15T20:09:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/61 "2013-11-06T18:54:49Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > In a market as large and complex as ours there will always be problems and you will always be able to find something that is worse than it used to be. However, to claim that today’s labor conditions are anything near what they were 100 years ago is silly hyperbole. then I am glad I did not make that claim. I do make the claim that wealth inequality is as bad or worse than it was in the Gilded Age, because the numbers bear me out. And labor conditions are certainly sliding back toward where they were a hundred years ago. They have a long way to go, but until the workers literally get their act together, they’ll keep sliding, and eventually … they’ll get there. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/62 "2013-11-06T19:20:39Z")
In 1920, management was narrowly limited in its ability to source labor. Sure, you could move your factory to Tennessee, but you sure as hell couldn’t move it to China. I doubt unions will ever be able to equalize wages again. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/63 "2013-11-06T19:49:34Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > 1. > 2. I can’t recall the last time I’ve heard of a Union do something positive. They are certainly not in control of their message at the moment. My mother, a member of the educational Union in my State, constantly complained about how useless they were. You never know how useful a union can be. My wife is a teacher. A few years ago there was a situation where she had a serious confrontation with a parent. It went all the way to the school board. The union provided the help my wife needed to convince the board directors to side with my wife on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/64 "2013-11-06T20:42:05Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > then I am glad I did not make that claim. You specifically made the claim that “now more than ever” we need unions. I take that to mean that you believe conditions are worse now than they have ever been–that is what is meant by “more than ever”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/65 "2013-11-06T20:49:25Z")
> [@hansel](#): > > Early on, a protected U.S. economy meant there was plenty of profits to go around, so unions amounted to a demand by the workers for a rent-sharing arrangement. As the U.S. economy opened up to foreign competition, profits decreased and unions and management again fought over a shrinking piece of pie. Whatever source you got this one from was lying. [For instance](http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/03/news/economy/record-corporate-profits) > [@](#): > > Just four years after the worst shock to the economy since the Great Depression, U.S. corporate profits are stronger than ever. > > In the third quarter, corporate earnings were $1.75 trillion, up 18.6% from a year ago, according to last week’si gross domestic product report. That took after-tax profits to their greatest percentage of GDP in history. Companies are going to cry poverty of course - while sitting on tons of money and giving their top execs gigantic raises. The poor working slob is not going to be able to do anything about it by himself. During the recession lots of companies got concessions from unions and individual workers. Now that profitability is back are they restoring these willingly? Not hardly. Maybe you should reconsider your position. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/66 "2013-11-07T05:37:00Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > You never know how useful a union can be. My wife is a teacher. A few years ago there was a situation where she had a serious confrontation with a parent. It went all the way to the school board. The union provided the help my wife needed to convince the board directors to side with my wife on the issue. If you have a good union, at least someone is looking out for you. As is mentioned towards the end of the article I link to below, there may be no one else to turn to. > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/67 "2013-11-07T05:44:16Z")
I think that’s the basic question that needs to be addressed to answer the OP’s question: what do you [general you] think would happen to the state of worker’s rights (including benefits, salaries, hours, ability to negotiate them, etc.) without unions? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/68 "2013-11-07T05:57:54Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > You specifically made the claim that “now more than ever” we need unions. I take that to mean that you believe conditions are worse now than they have ever been–that is what is meant by “more than ever”. Fair enough. It was badly phrased. Consider that claim retracted. We still do need unions, or more to the point, something like them. I personally think a trade association for workers to join is what is needed, since businesses will fight like hell prevent unions but may not be able to fight workers’ trade associations. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/69 "2013-11-07T18:14:09Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I think that’s the basic question that needs to be addressed to answer the OP’s question: what do you [general you] think would happen to the state of worker’s rights (including benefits, salaries, hours, ability to negotiate them, etc.) without unions? I recall a conversation/debate in an older thread regarding this issue in which the other Doper said he’d been able to negotiate with his bosses in every job he’d ever had. When I pointed out that it wasn’t possible to do that in my line of work because everything had to be negotiated via collective bargaining with the district, he thought it was awful and couldn’t understand why everyone couldn’t just negotiate on their own without a union. My response: If the manager/boss/admin./whoever does not want to hear from the employees regarding workers’ rights and the workers have no union or do not wish to form one, then what is the solution? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/70 "2013-11-07T19:42:51Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I recall a conversation/debate in an older thread regarding this issue in which the other Doper said he’d been able to negotiate with his bosses in every job he’d ever had. When I pointed out that it wasn’t possible to do that in my line of work because everything had to be negotiated via collective bargaining with the district, he thought it was awful and couldn’t understand why everyone couldn’t just negotiate on their own without a union. > My response: If the manager/boss/admin./whoever does not want to hear from the employees regarding workers’ rights and the workers have no union or do not wish to form one, then what is the solution? The solution is “do a better job” or “go elsewhere and do a better job” and as always, “brown-nose, brown-nose, brown-nose!” This solution brought to you by Libertarians and Conservatives of America. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/71 "2013-11-07T20:06:38Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The solution is “do a better job” or “go elsewhere and do a better job” and as always, “brown-nose, brown-nose, brown-nose!” > > This solution brought to you by Libertarians and Conservatives of America. Addendum: “Quit complaining about your sucky job and be glad you have one, America-hater!” ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/72 "2013-11-07T20:40:08Z")
There is a worse evil than having no Unions, and that’s the apathy of being able to change anything at all, and it’s endemic in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/73 "2013-11-08T00:03:25Z")
Suppose youi belong to a corrupt union-like the one in Ön The water". Your boss (in the union) decides who will work, and for how much-and steals "dues"from you. Not essentially different from a tyrannical boss. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343/74 "2013-11-08T03:46:37Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > You never know how useful a union can be. My wife is a teacher. A few years ago there was a situation where she had a serious confrontation with a parent. It went all the way to the school board. The union provided the help my wife needed to convince the board directors to side with my wife on the issue. This could be an argument for or against unions, depending on the view of whether your wife was in the right or in the wrong. The question would be was the union helping a teacher out of an unfair complaint or did they protect someone that should have been disciplined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-unions-obsolete/671343.md?page=3)