# Are US leaders hypocritical wanting to bomb Syria to save the children, contd, in thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976 "2013-09-04T06:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/21 "2013-09-04T16:52:59Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Are US leaders hypocritical wanting to bomb Syria to “save the children”, when they did nothing to stop the Rawanda genocide, the mass slaughter in Darfur, the war in Sudan, carried out an illegal war in Iraq justified by lies, subvert elected governments in sovereign countries causing many deaths etc etc? 1. The reasoning for the bombing is to discourage the use of chemical weapons, not “save the children”. 2. “US leaders” isn’t a single entity, it’s hundreds of people with their own drives and opinions. The US goes to war as a result of a debate and typically as part of a compromise (unless the cause is extremely clear-cut). To show hypocrisy here, you need to catalog every US leader who currently supports action against Syria and determine their history of supporting combat action. And also you need to keep in mind that sometimes people change their minds over time, that’s not hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > Further, why is it the USA’s job to save the world from itself. Saudi Arabia is armed to the teeth with US weapons and has a lot of money- why can’t they do the job in Syria? It’s the UN Security Council’s job. The problem is that currently Russia, a permanent member, will not support any action against Syria for various reasons, and so that’s a non-starter. Since the UN Security Council’s involvement is a non-starter, the US is considering action independent of it. The other reality is that the US has the most capable and, for lack of a better word, civilized military in the world currently. When we get ourselves involved in actions like this, you can guarantee we’ll do everything we can to minimize casualties, we won’t break the established international rules of war, we’ll feed and take care of the civilians as much as possible, and we won’t annex the country afterward. None of those are true of Saudi Arabia. > [@](#): > > Were US citizens ever asked if they want to pay taxes to be the world’s policeman. I wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/22 "2013-09-04T16:58:13Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Oh dear. Time to take your pills please. Knock it off. You can’t insult other posters in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/23 "2013-09-05T00:03:11Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Jesus fucking wept. > > The USA is the rogue state: killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children on false pretexts, avoiding the UN because it has no evidence, kidnapping and torturing by the thousand, incarcerating without legal recourse, propping up client regimes of all political shades … in I haven’t got the time or will. > > It seems impossible there is a sentient being left on this planet in the 21st century who believes this utter nonsense: The USA has been a dominant empire, it does shit things to maintain its imperial status, this is how human civilisation has always been. The statement “the US is a world policeman” is a morally neutral one-it does not imply that the United States has always done the right thing in this role. And it is also apparent that the United States is morally speaking far better than any previous world superpower. For the record I wouldn’t have supported most of the CIA-backed coups in the Cold War or the Vietnam and Iraq Wars. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/24 "2013-09-05T09:42:35Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Wait, is that the pretext? I thought the whole point was that America obviously wasn’t bombing Syria to save the children last month or last year, and _ **still** _ wouldn’t even be talking about bombing Syria so long as the children over there kept getting mundanely killed by conventional weapons. Maybe the gas is the pretext, but they are all weeping and gnashing their teeth on tv because the gas killed a few hundred children, ignoring all the thousands of people killed by convential means in Syria means and the thousands of children killed in Darfur etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/25 "2013-09-05T09:45:08Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No it just means we ought to have intervened in Rwanda and Sudan and not invaded Iraq. That doesn’t in any way reduce our need to intervene in Syria to prevent the violence. To use an analogy: suppose I saw a brutal beating take place in an alley but instead of calling the police or aiding the victim I did nothing. This doesn’t justify that when I next see such a beating take place I should again do nothing. > And the US is the world’s “policeman” because it has extensive logistical capabilities not available even to the militaries of other advanced countries plus the Saudis are reactionary fanatics who make Assad look progressive-do you really want _them_ to shape the future of Syria (not to mention that Saudi Arabia does not border Syria). I wasn’t aware that the US borders Syria, LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/26 "2013-09-05T09:47:58Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It’s possible that those that want to intervene in Syria are hypocritical for not wanting to do so in Darfur and Sudan. I’m leaning toward yes morally but no legally. The use of chemical weapons is a red line in international law, not just according to Obama, and there were no chemical weapons against an organized opponent used in those two situations (that I know of). But international law doesn’t say anything about people’s suffering. > > However, they are not the same leaders as the ones who did not stop the genocide in Rwanda: not hypocritical. > > They are not the same leaders who subverted elected governments decades ago: not hypocritical. > > It may have been more appropriate if you said it was hypocritical to want to invade Iraq but _not_ invade Syria, or the opposite, but it’s not hypocritical to support both. They’re both military action. Leaders aren’t just politicians. Many of the talking heads on tv justifying the use of US military in Syria were around during the Rawanda genocide etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/27 "2013-09-05T09:54:35Z")
> [@Blakeyrat](#): > > 1. The reasoning for the bombing is to discourage the use of chemical weapons, not “save the children”. > > 2. “US leaders” isn’t a single entity, it’s hundreds of people with their own drives and opinions. The US goes to war as a result of a debate and typically as part of a compromise (unless the cause is extremely clear-cut). > > To show hypocrisy here, you need to catalog every US leader who currently supports action against Syria and determine their history of supporting combat action. And also you need to keep in mind that sometimes people change their minds over time, that’s not hypocrisy. > > It’s the UN Security Council’s job. The problem is that currently Russia, a permanent member, will not support any action against Syria for various reasons, and so that’s a non-starter. Since the UN Security Council’s involvement is a non-starter, the US is considering action independent of it. > > The other reality is that the US has the most capable and, for lack of a better word, civilized military in the world currently. When we get ourselves involved in actions like this, you can guarantee we’ll do everything we can to minimize casualties, we won’t break the established international rules of war, we’ll feed and take care of the civilians as much as possible, and we won’t annex the country afterward. None of those are true of Saudi Arabia. > > I wasn’t. No US politician that I know of is calling for intervention in the Darfur situation ( or any of the African crises ), which continues to this day. \< we won’t break the established international rules of war, \> Hmmmm. Isn’t a certain soldier incarcerated for 35 years for exposing US war crimes in Iraq ( not to get into Vietnam war- Pentagon Papers, My Lai etc ). Perhaps it is time for the US government to have a referendum as to it’s role in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/28 "2013-09-05T09:57:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Like who? Bashar Assad? We had nothing to do with that. It was the Soviets who helped put the Assads in power. Hosni Mubarak for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/29 "2013-09-05T09:59:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The statement “the US is a world policeman” is a morally neutral one-it does not imply that the United States has always done the right thing in this role. And it is also apparent that the United States is morally speaking far better than any previous world superpower. > > For the record I wouldn’t have supported most of the CIA-backed coups in the Cold War or the Vietnam and Iraq Wars. Never heard of Pax Britannica. They didn’t do too badly ( notwithstanding that they also did some terrible things ). Banned slavery long before The USA for instance. ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/30 "2013-09-05T10:07:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Like who? Bashar Assad? We had nothing to do with that. It was the Soviets who helped put the Assads in power. A little homework for you. [http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/](http://www.bluebloggin.com/2008/01/11/history-of-us-backed-dictators-redux/) Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/31 "2013-09-05T10:10:03Z")
> [@XT](#): > > We didn’t create Assad, and he (and his dad before him) weren’t our buddies…they were in bed with the Soviets, which is why the Russians still love and protect them them (granting the Russians basing rights helps as well of course). > > As to the OP, I think it’s a total strawman. We aren’t proposing to bomb Syria to ‘save the children’…we are doing it because the use of chemical weapons is proscribed under international law, and it sets a bad precedence to allow a country, especially a 3rd world country to get away with using the nasty things. There is, afaik, no realistic expectations that this is going to fix or solve the major issues in Syria, or be some sort of magic bullet. It’s a reprisal, pure and simple…and one that still hasn’t happened yet, despite the major frettage going on by posters on this board opposed to ANY sort of military action for any reason, whatsoevah. Gassing the Kurds wasn’t used as a pretext to invade Iraq. If the US bombs Syria and kills Russians the potential for a much larger conflict exists. Also, if Syria does retaliate against Israel the unintended consequences could be far more severe than doing nothing. There are other ways to punish Assad ( if it can even be proven that he is responsible ) without starting WW3. Why doesn’t Obama use a drone strike to assassinate Assad if they are so great? ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/32 "2013-09-05T10:12:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > May I ask who were the people who objected to military aid for Rwanda and Darfur but are calling for it regarding Syria. Was there even a call for action on Rawanda to object to? I don’t remember the US making any waves about it at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/33 "2013-09-05T10:13:36Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Never heard of Pax Britannica. They didn’t do too badly ( notwithstanding that they also did some terrible things ). Banned slavery long before The USA for instance. Sorry. There should have been a ? after “Never heard of Pax Britannica” ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/34 "2013-09-05T10:15:24Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Yeah! Who you got in mind? Didn’t the US population vote for Obama because he was supposed to be for “peace”, not wars? ---
**Author:** ![jsutter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@jsutter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsutter)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/35 "2013-09-05T10:26:55Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Didn’t the US population vote for Obama because he was supposed to be for “peace”, not wars? :o I will not be fooled again. Aloha ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/36 "2013-09-05T11:40:39Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Didn’t the US population vote for Obama because he was supposed to be for “peace”, not wars? Not that I recall. Against torture and invasions for political gain, certainly. I don’t remember him saying that he’d never go to war ever. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/37 "2013-09-05T12:03:44Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Maybe the gas is the pretext, but they are all weeping and gnashing their teeth on tv because the gas killed a few hundred children, ignoring all the thousands of people killed by convential means in Syria means and the thousands of children killed in Darfur etc etc. Yes, and we’d still be ignoring Syria if those children had been killed by conventional means instead. We’d still be gearing up for airstrikes if _ **half** _ as many Syrian kids had been gassed – and we’d still be Not Giving A Crap if double or triple or _ **quadruple** _ the number of Syrian kids had died on the right side of the red line. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/38 "2013-09-05T12:35:27Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Didn’t the US population vote for Obama because he was supposed to be for “peace”, not wars? Well, tbf, 51.1% of 58.2% did. I make that approx 30% of the enfranchised, closer to 20% of the “US population”: > **[2012 United States presidential election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012)** > > Barack Obama > Democratic > Barack Obama > Democratic Anyway, iirc the big issues of the 2012 election were the economy and healthcare? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/39 "2013-09-05T12:43:42Z")
Admittedly it makes the Nobel Peace Prize Committee look a little foolish but that’s not Obama’s fault. And given the winddown in Iraq and Afghanistan and the limited intervention in Libya, he could have done worse. But I admit I’m stymied on the right course of action for the US with regard to Syria. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976/40 "2013-09-05T13:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=Doggo] Gassing the Kurds wasn’t used as a pretext to invade Iraq. [/QUOTE] Nope, it wasn’t. We sat back and did nothing while Saddam used WMD on his people. > [@](#): > > If the US bombs Syria and kills Russians the potential for a much larger conflict exists. :dubious: Any Russians who are hanging about the chemical weapons caches would be idiots if they didn’t understand the risk. And Russia isn’t going to deliberately provoke a conflict with the US. This is a ridiculous scenario. > [@](#): > > Also, if Syria does retaliate against Israel the unintended consequences could be far more severe than doing nothing. If Syria retaliates against Israel for a US air strike then it will be on their head. It would also be extremely stupid for them to attack Israel for something we did. > [@](#): > > There are other ways to punish Assad ( if it can even be proven that he is responsible ) without starting WW3. Why doesn’t Obama use a drone strike to assassinate Assad if they are so great? Probably because Obama, or at a minimum Obama’s advisers are smarter than that. They know that in the current situation killing Assad (that is us killing Assad) won’t solve anything and will actually make the short term situation worse. The goal isn’t for us to kill Assad (we could do that with regular air or missile strikes, no drones needed), but instead to punish his use of chemical weapons against his own people. From what I’ve been reading the administration is planning a limited series of strikes to do this. We don’t WANT to shift the balance of power in this struggle, we simply want to punish Assad et al for their use of chemical weapons and make it clear that further such uses will not go unpunished. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-leaders-hypocritical-wanting-to-bomb-syria-to-save-the-children-contd-in-thread/667976.md?page=3)