# Are US trade relationships with it’s allies unfair to the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2018, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869 "2018-06-11T12:14:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mikemike2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikemike2/32/305_2.png) [@Mikemike2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikemike2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/41 "2018-06-12T20:28:26Z")
From [Macleans](https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/will-we-really-sacrifice-the-canadian-economy-at-the-altar-of-the-dairy-industry/) - …Taking into consideration Trump has now publicly focused on dairy… > [@](#): > > In other words, it is quite likely the success of the NAFTA talks now depends on dairy. Which insidiously leads us to an overwhelming question: Is Canada prepared to sacrifice the entire Canadian economy to defend the dairy industry? > > When asked that way, the answer is obvious. Risking over $600 billion in trade to protect one small industry would be insane. And that is without even taking into account, according to the Conference Board of Canada’s calculations, the supply management system already costs every consumer on average $276 per year in higher food prices. Again a very small (but politically influential) business sector is being protected to the absolute detriment of other Canadians. Other businesses do not get protection, they have to compete. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/42 "2018-06-12T20:53:58Z")
Trump simply does not understand what trade is fundamentally. We export dollars and get goods and services in return, but he would rather import currency and export goods and services. It is a strange preference and irrelevant to prosperity. If the trade imbalance is due to overbearing regulation, there is a reason to complain, but not about other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/43 "2018-06-12T21:12:03Z")
> [@Mikemike2](#): > > Again a very small (but politically influential) business sector is being protected to the absolute detriment of other Canadians. Other businesses do not get protection, they have to compete. You have actually paid attention to what others have written right? You did note the reduction in tariffs associate with cheese following the CETA agreement? Regardless, your statement of no other business getting governmental support is rubbish. What do you think the Canadian Exploration Expenses deductible is? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/44 "2018-06-12T23:34:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Both countries have their protected industries; Trump’s implication that the Canadian protection of dairy is some unique thing is dishonest. My understanding is that the US has a 350% tariff on tobacco products. Much to my surprise on googling it seems possible this was something Canada might have once had [issue with](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_tobacco_belt). China ,which produces vastly more tobacco than the US, would seem likely to have rather more. You’d think it would be kind of hard to get up on a high horse about unfair tariffs given the above. But apparently Trump ain’t afraid of no high saddle. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/45 "2018-06-13T00:07:02Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > One day when The Nephew was three years old we went to the supermarket together. As we were leaving, he giggled and pointed out that the cashier and I had thanked each other. I said yes, we had. He asked, but why? > > I’ve thanked her because, by selling us this food, she and her coworkers have made it possible for us and our family to eat today. And she’s thanked us because, by buying this food from them, you and I and every other customer make it possible for them and their families to eat tomorrow. > > A fair trade means everybody gets to eat. Trump thinks he hasn’t won unless he sees the other party begging for food in a corner. Exactly ! And that’s what puzzles me (or, depending on how far back my last caffeine fix was, drives me up a wall) about people like \*\*Starving Artist \*_who opine that the EU benefits a lot from trade with the US and thus should be grateful. Of course we benefit from trade with you. We give you our Samsung phones and our Beaujolais wine_ and in return you give us money, which we’re very fond of so that’s very thoughtful of you, thanks. We collectively and implicitly expect that you guys want to have the phones. We did not put a gun to your heads and order you to take the phones off our hands. And yes, we do make the phones specifically to sell to you. We do benefit from it. That’s _the whole point of trading_, for the love of all that is unholy ! What the fuck other model is there ? What do the **Starving Artist** s of the world want from us ? Do you want the phones but \*not \*give us the traditional money in exchange ? That’s not trade, that’s called “robbery”. We no want, sorry. Do you want to give us the money and not get the phones instead ? That’s… well, we’d be OK with that, I think, despite the whole break with tradition. It’s progressive, it’s new, it’s un-swampy, I like that. You could do that. But if what you want is no phones and no money, no trading, no nothing, “America will go it alone !”, you’re really hurting yourselves more than anything. We’ll still be trading among each other, you see. And China. - to be fair, it’s a real stretch to be calling Beaujolais “wine” but y’all don’t seem to have noticed yet so fuck it, let’s ride that wave as far as it’ll go ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/46 "2018-06-13T03:56:48Z")
😕 U.S. corporate profits are at an all-time record high; _ **U.S. exports are at an all-time record high** _; U.S. employment is setting record highs. The U.S. has orchestrated strong trade deals like TPP which would give it strong economic and geopolitical influence throughout the Pacific region. The U.S. stock market has been blazingly hot for more than nine years, hugely outperforming other world markets. The U.S. economy is so hot its central bank has raised interest rates to levels much healthier than those of its peers. And despite the high exports and hot economy, and despite weak-dollar intentions of Trump and Mnuchin, _ **the dollar remains very strong** _. A Japanese Yen is worth less than a penny; and _ **the British pound has plummeted to levels not seen since the strong-dollar crisis of 1985** _. If this is what happens when the U.S. is _bested_ in trade negotiations I’d hate to imagine what economic conditions _favorable_ for the U.S. would look like. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/47 "2018-06-13T04:13:02Z")
> [@](#): > > In other words, it is quite likely the success of the NAFTA talks now depends on dairy. Which insidiously leads us to an overwhelming question: Is Canada prepared to sacrifice the entire Canadian economy to defend the dairy industry? Supply management is not the main point of contention in NAFTA talks. Yes, that’s the main thing that Trump is tweeting about because it’s getting traction with Americans, but that’s not the hill that Canada is going to die on. Trudeau said on NBC that flexibility on supply management is possible. He has said otherwise to the Canadian dairy industry … but that’s a pretty transparent lie. Supply management is the cheapest trade chip he can cash, economically speaking (politically speaking may be a different story). The main sticking points are the US’s untenable requirements for a sunset clause (which kills the potential for long term investment in Canada), removing any enforcement mechanisms from NAFTA (along Trump to impose future tariffs against Canada with Canada having no realistic recourse, effectively meaning that there is no free trade at all here) and US-specific auto content requirements (kneecapping Canada’s auto industry). Until the US backs off on these points, an agreement with the US has no value to Canada. Also, the US must offer Canada meaningful trade concessions in exchange for loosening supply management, or else what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![This\_Just\_In\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@This\_Just\_In\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Just_In_2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/48 "2018-06-13T04:46:19Z")
> [@Mikemike2](#): > > From [Macleans](https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/will-we-really-sacrifice-the-canadian-economy-at-the-altar-of-the-dairy-industry/) - > > …Taking into consideration Trump has now publicly focused on dairy… > > Again a very small (but politically influential) business sector is being protected to the absolute detriment of other Canadians. Other businesses do not get protection, they have to compete. Trump has proven himself to be a liar and not be trustworthy, not in the slightest. Even if Canada was to sacrifice Dairy trade to Trump’s bully tactics - he’d just be back with another demand in a different sector the following week. A country’s leadership would have to be incredibly naive to capitulate to his crap. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/49 "2018-06-13T13:19:50Z")
Well, of course. Canada’s dairy system is terrible for ordinary Canadians, but that’s an issue independent from trade agreements. It would be possible for Canada to eliminate supply management and allow for Canadians to buy milk and cheese at fairer prices without dropping tariff protection from the subsidized U.S. dairy industry. In the scale of US-Canadian trade, dairy is a fart in a windstorm. The potential trade in dairy is maybe a day’s worth of current automotive trade. End that, and hundred of thousands of Americans AND Canadians lose their jobs in a month. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/50 "2018-06-13T15:47:23Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I think this basically amounts to a criticism of Trump, whereas the question was ‘are US trade relationships with its allies unfair to the US’. Again let’s labor mightily to put the specifics of Trump aside for a moment. All ‘practical application’ is not a matter of Trump either. > > The word ‘unfair’ is put to very heavy use in (small ‘d’) democratic politics generally. So it might be reasonable in a political vacuum to pick at the use of the word ‘unfair’ wrt trade if the reality was more like ‘parts of the US body politic disagree with the relative weightings of favorable\* and unfavorable implied by past US admin’s positions on trade deals’. But IMO the word isn’t any less an exaggeration in certain applications to the differing economic outcomes of different people and groups in society generally. A lot of times what’s called ‘unfair’ in that context is also self indulgent or (sometimes self-)infantalizing as I see it. But very common. > > It’s a subjective judgment what’s ‘fair’ about public policy. Also the motives of past (US) leaders in reaching trade agreements seen as having ‘unfair’ effects. And again even back to Trump himself, he really has made a strong point of blaming past US leaders admins for the negative side effects of free trade on many Americans, which are not imaginary. Are opponents of Trump really going to be charitable to Trump in assessing negative effects of what he does, and be very careful to make clear they simply disagree on the various weights to give plus or minuses, or policies, or are they going to accuse him of incompetence and bad motives? The question answers itself I think. > > The issue here as I see is whether there is an valid framework in which to see the trade agreements entered in by the US as unfavorable. I think there is, which isn’t to say I generally agree with that necessarily. And it’s not all about what Trump understands in a thought-through intellectual way. In various cases IMO he senses valid (though subjective) criticisms various people have of how things have been going in the US and this is one case. But the unpopularity of free trade with large segments of the US population is not going to disappear when Trump does (separate from really bad economic effects of ‘solutions’ he adopts, but it’s not clear his policies will ever get to that, still a lot of it is talk and the real measures pretty small). I’m not disagreeing with you on many of these points, but what you appear to be arguing is that US trade relationships with its allies _could be_ unfair - and they could - without arguing that they _are_. All I have to go on are the things Trump has stated he thinks are unfair (based on nothing coherent); your assessment that he “senses” legitimate areas of concern is not supported by any evidence that I’ve seen. Yes, certain trade policies are “unpopular” with specific segments of the population…but this has little to do with “fairness”. Any trade policy at any end of the spectrum - free trade, fair trade, protectionism - is going to have winners and losers, and the losers are always going to be understandably unhappy about it. The question to answer is never “Did I get everything I wanted?” or even “Did I get something for everyone?” but rather “Did I get enough to address as many of my top priorities as possible?” That’s the best that anyone can get out of a negotiation. ---
**Author:** ![Mikemike2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikemike2/32/305_2.png) [@Mikemike2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikemike2)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/51 "2018-06-13T16:12:29Z")
[Here](http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/trudeau-trump-tariffs-1.4703521) is an interesting write up from the cbc that states the interprovincial tariffs costs the Canadian economy $50 to $130 billion dollars per year, or $7,500 per household. The Federal government has the ability to stop these tariffs, but does not so as not to pick a fight with all the provinces. > [@](#): > > It turns out interprovincial trade is not so different from international trade, shrunk to fit our domestic divisions. Within their provincial bailiwicks, our premiers are pint-sized Trumps and Trudeaus, simultaneously demanding fairness from their neighbours and special protections for their own industries. > [@](#): > > It shouldn’t be this way. Every other federation — from Australia to Germany to the United States — has figured out the benefits of internal free trade. But until our provincial and federal leaders shake their own Trumpian, zero-sum approach to domestic trade, Canada will continue to be denied a key protection that our founders provided against just the kind of diplomatic uncertainty we now face from Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869/52 "2018-06-16T11:39:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > For instance, even if a tariff helps internal steel makers, it hurts users of steel since it increases prices, including on steel not made in the US. Even before the tariffs went into effect, back in March just the talk of it possibly happening later down the road caused my building supplier to shoot up the prices 25% on items like tubing, c and z purlin, rebar, etc., sheet metal not as much. And just a couple of weeks ago, my supplier gave me a heads up that’s it’s probably going up another 25%, and asked me if I wanted to get another order in now, which I did. Didn’t check back to see, but I suspected it did. Trump concentrating on supposedly helping the steel producers in this country, threw the consumers under a big bus, which is pretty much all of us, especially me. It will be my last business expansion. I’d like to have kept going, but retiring a bit early instead of dealing with this is the best choice for me at this stage in my life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-us-trade-relationships-with-it-s-allies-unfair-to-the-us/815869.md?page=2)