uh, Waverly, no.
Even in a hospital that uses Ventouse there will still be occasions where forceps are more suitable for the job at hand. If someone is more confident in using forceps than ventouse and if speed is of the essence, forceps might be the best tool for the job.
One does not have to be “dangerously misinformed” or some kind of dinosaur to use them. Sometimes they’re the right tool for the job.
The use of ventouse compared to forceps is associated with a higher risk of failure, more cephalhaematomata, more retinal haemorrhages but less use of regional/general anaesthesia, less maternal perineal or vaginal trauma. No significant differences between ventouse and forceps were found in caesarean section rates, low Apgar scores at five minutes or long-term follow-up of mothers and children (five years
This is taken from is taken from the Royal College of Obstericians and Gynaecologists guidelines for Operative vaginal Delivery, which can be found at: http://www.rcog.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=523
I did not accuse you of insulting women; I said the language in the study you cited was insulting. Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. Note: I said, “That’s insulting…” not, “You’re insulting…” The word “that” referred to the language, not to you, personally. So back off, or read more carefully.
And for the record, yes, monetary greed is cetainly different from the “broad definition” of greed. It refers to money, currency, financial gain. Nothing to do with food and shelter for which feral animals compete. It’s a human construct.
More suitable so long as that hospital still uses them, you mean. You see, at the time I lived in an area with a number of hospitals with newly renovated birth wings. They were very active in promoting themselves, and were very explicit in what they offered and what the doctors and nurses did or did not do. I personally never would have thought to shop for hospitals, but Ms. Waverly was pretty efficient at this type of thing. She even filled out a long form detailing how she wanted the birth handled, where again she stated that she didn’t want assistance (including drugs) unless it was an emergency. She was deathly afraid of forceps having had a friend with lifelong facial scars from a forcep delivery.
So yes, regardless whether the device still has its uses (as I agree you have shown), I hope you will agree that there is something wrong with a doctor who says he’s going to fetch an instrument that we know isn’t in the hospital, and we have told him we don’t want used in any event. This was no emergency, by the way, the doctor just didn’t think Ms. W was pushing as hard as she could, and had told her so.
My apologies. I wasn’t trying to be offensive. I should said “threat” (with the quotation marks) in my earlier post. I was responding to Waverly’s comment about “threatening” women with forceps to make them deliver faster. I don’t think that is a common occurrence and I was mentioning what I would have done if that had happened. My reaction would also include the fact that my OB was not experienced at all with a forceps.
My opinion is that any delivery which results in a healthy mother and child is a good one.
You really don’t think that a desire for food, shelter, or sex is pretty similar to a desire for money? Money is just the human approach to assuring the first two… actually… well I’ll stop right there.
Read my last sentence. Money is a human construct. Food and shelter are basic instincts, easily seen in most mammals, and lots of other creatures. What other species exchanges currency? (As we veer off into a whole other discussion, and possibly GD territory… or Og help us, the Pit. )
Boy Howdy, how did this thread get hijacked so far off track? Waverly, you’ve brought up some good points. After reading your last post, I understand where you’re coming from more, and I apologize if I seemed antagonistic toward you.
Excuse me Waverly, I didn’t realise that this was the way your hospital worked.
Personally, I think it’s not a very good way of working, because if things go wrong your only option is ventouse or section, and if ventouse is inappropriate for the job, and speed is a major factor, the baby could well have died before the section is performed.
Yes, in an emergency they can go skin to baby in 5 mins or less, but they need to get you to theatre, anaesthetise you and have all the members of the teams and several units of suitable blood standing by first…which can take an extra vital few minutes.
Although I think their policy is misguided, after hearing more details I agree with you that in this case the doctor was using something your wife was especially terrified of to scare her, and that is NOT OK, nor is it common practice.
I’m not sure how long the rest would take, but in this hospital the delivery room doubled as an operating room, recovery room, and ultimately the patient’s room during her stay. I doubt this is normal, but it was very convenient, and they made it comfortable with a couch, a few chairs, and a television. The bath was much nicer than our own, and included a whirlpool. Thank god I had top notch insurance, or I’m sure this would have cost a mint.
MissGypsy, no hard feelings on my end. I was a bit baffled as to why what I was saying was causing so much irritation. Maybe I came across more confrontational than I intended. Sorry for that, if that is the case.
Wait, they’ll do a c-section in a LDR (Labor, Delivery, Recovery) room?! WTF? That’s very, very odd. Generally, an LDR is suitable for a vaginal birth, even one requiring forceps or suction, but I’m having trouble fathoming it as a safe place to do a c-section. Did they have that special narrow tilting surgical table to strap the woman onto and then move her uterus off her abdominal artery? (Or the Tilt-A-Whirl Crucifix, as I like to call it.) How would they keep it sterile? A room doesn’t have to be sterile to do a vaginal delivery, just clean, but for major abdominal surgery? That just makes no sense to me.
In both hospitals I delivered at, LDR’s were for non-complicated vaginal births only. If you showed signs of trouble or they determined you needed a c-section, you are taken first to an Operating Room and then a Surgical Recovery Room before being brought into a standard Hospital Room.
The newer birthing centers attached to hospitals in our state (freestanding ones are still illegal in Illinois. :rolleyes: ) will only take low-risk deliveries. That’s part of why their forceps and c-section rates remain lower than the hospital itself. They selectively choose those patients with a health history less likely to give them trouble, and transfer them to the regular Labor and Delivery if things even hint at getting ugly. And, of course, if you get transfered for a suspected proble, you’re watched even closer than a regular admit, and they’re even more likely to pressure a c-section “just to be safe”.
Of course, Illinois is pretty backwards when it comes to prenatal care and labor and childbirth. Episitomies are still the rule here, not the exception, and midwives have to be certified-nurse midwives, and home birth is illegal. I’m sure it has nothing to do with the fact that the headquarters for the AMA is in our state and their lobbiests are pretty much camped out 24/7 at the Capitol building and the Department of Professional Regulations [/angry alternative practitioner paranoia rant]
irishgirl’s sytem seems like the most sensible one to me.
Oh lordy Waverly, I wouldn’t have agreed to any major surgery in that room!
I would want a nice clean theatre with sterile surfaces, HEPA filtered air and room for 2 surgeons, 3 nurses, an anaesthetist and a paediatric team to move about comfortably, and all the sterile scrub facilities in the same room so that no-one has to walk up and down the corridor while scrubbed in. That’s me though.
Whynot- you’re right, if a pregnant woman lies flat on her back the pregnant uterus compresses the Vena Cava, the major abdominal vein, preventing venous return from the lower body. This not only leads to hypotension, but increases the risk of stasis and the development of blood clots. It’s why they make you lie in that weird half on your back/half on your side position (the 15 degree left lateral tilt), and why obstetric operating tables need to be that “tilt-a whirl” style…the altenative is a few sterile towels under your patient’s back on one side, but it’s less than satisfactory!
