# Are victims responsible for crimes committed against them **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041 "2015-12-21T23:48:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/41 "2015-12-22T20:08:49Z")
And, just to likewise expand on my earlier answer: they in fact did a SEINFELD episode in which George follows some woman he just met back to a place where he strips down and lets her chain him to the bed, at which point she – walks off with his money and his clothes. She is, of course, “at fault”; if caught, she should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And he is, of course, “stupid” – but that doesn’t change what I was just saying about her. If he’s stupid enough to cheerfully let a stranger incapacitate him again, he might get his stuff stolen again – and that _still_ wouldn’t excuse the thief, or mitigate her crime; it would just mean he’s quite possibly so stupid that someone should slowly and patiently bring a couple of facts to his attention. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/42 "2015-12-22T20:19:48Z")
Making it easier for a criminal to perpetrate their crimes is not the same as being responsible for those crimes. I am reminded of the rebuttal to “not teaching your daughter to be safe” – why not teach your son not to rape? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/43 "2015-12-22T20:40:30Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I am reminded of the rebuttal to “not teaching your daughter to be safe” – why not teach your son not to rape? Who says you have to choose only one? But teaching your son not to rape doesn’t keep your daughter safe unless _everybody_ else teaches their sons not to rape. If about 95% of people are honest and trustworthy, 4% are basically law-abiding and safe to be around but could be tempted by opportunity, and 1% are predatory bad guys, you still need to protect yourself against that 5%. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/44 "2015-12-22T20:44:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Who says you have to choose only one? > > But teaching your son not to rape doesn’t keep your daughter safe unless _everybody_ else teaches their sons not to rape. > > If about 95% of people are honest and trustworthy, 4% are basically law-abiding and safe to be around but could be tempted by opportunity, and 1% are predatory bad guys, you still need to protect yourself against that 5%. Exactly. If I see a woman at the bar who drinks until she passes out, and I see a guy about to take advantage of her, I’ll tell him _not to do that_ – maybe adding that it’s a crime, and he has no right to do so. But if she regains consciousness, I’ll maybe tell her that, while she has a perfect right to do what she just did, it’s pretty stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/45 "2015-12-22T21:50:07Z")
> [@azurill33](#): > > Or how about this scenario :How about this scenario : How many scenarios you got? Is there a single one you’re narrowing in on? ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/46 "2015-12-22T23:31:31Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > “The victim was asking for it” is one of the oldest defenses in the book. Matthew Shepard deserved it because he was gay and coming on to us. Three years later, the same criminals made it about a drug deal gone bad. Nicole Simpson was sleeping with other men, so she deserved to be butchered. > > When I was attacked going for a walk at 8 o’clock in the morning, the police officer asked me why I was out going for a walk at 8 o’clock in the morning. I told him to shut up, I had every right to be going for a walk at 8 o’clock in the morning. What if the victim is given drugs (like Bill Cosby’s victims)? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/47 "2015-12-22T23:42:59Z")
I think people are conflating ownership with blame, in this thread. The drunk sorority girl at a frat party has some ownership in the events that transpire. But the frat boy is to blame for the rape. Her actions may have made his actions easier, but his actions are still solely his responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/48 "2015-12-23T00:52:24Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > No, an individual is not responsible for crimes committed against them. But, people have a duty to themselves to do what they can to avoid being victimized. Legally, an individual is not responsible for the criminal acts of others. Morally, they can bear some of the responsibility for losses or injuries that they sustain as a result of the crime. If you go to the “hood” after dark, walk around flashing large wads of cash while looking lost, and end up getting robbed, you bear none of the formal guilt for the crime itself (e.g. you are not deserving of punishment, etc.) but you might arguably be subject to criticism about your poor judgment skills. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/49 "2015-12-23T02:10:37Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > If the driver is in full possession of their senses and the pedestrian strike is unavoidable then we have an accident, not a crime. If the driver is impaired by alcohol or drug use it is a crime because operating a motor vehicle under the influence is a crime whether or not someone else is hurt. > > I do not believe someone can accidentally rape a woman regardless of her state of inebriation. The debate is about moral responsibility, not legal one; as I said in my case when I was hit it would had made no difference if the driver would had been sober or drunk, my actions caused the accident, to me it seems like a double standard to simply switch the responsibility of the outcomes in each case based on the state of the driver. I would had been equally at fault in both instances, the driver being drunk would add another layer of fault into the equation. Whitewashing the responsibility of a victim because they got the short end of the stick in a bad situation only serves to create the conditions in which nobody learns from the situation. Again I bring up my case, lets say the driver was drunk and everyone tells me “it wasn’t your fault, you didn’t do anything wrong”, I believe it, don’t change my beheaviour and next time I do something similar I get hit again end up dead. Come to think of it that’s more or less how my GFs brother died, badly injured in bike crash No1 without a helmet, dead on crash No2 again without a helmet, but I digress… I think it is counterproductive to not assign an appropriate amount of responsibility to the victims of a crime if by their own actions they put themselves in a dangerous situation; it may sound unpalatable, but shouting down with “Victim blaming!” a deconstruction of the events that lead to a bad situation only ensures that nobody learns what steps could had been taken to prevent the situation in the first place. _“I do not believe someone can accidentally rape a woman regardless of her state of inebriation”_ Neither do I, but what if the woman puts herself in a vulnerable position by rendering herself unresponsive around men of low moral standards? If you know that your actions increase the likelihood of something bad happening to you, and you do it anyway then why shouldn’t be you bear some part of the responsibility? If we eliminate from the social discourse the idea that a victim is ever at fault for anything that leads to a rape we will only end up raising easy victims for the predators around us. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/50 "2015-12-23T02:21:52Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Legally, an individual is not responsible for the criminal acts of others. Morally, they can bear some of the responsibility for losses or injuries that they sustain as a result of the crime. > > If you go to the “hood” after dark, walk around flashing large wads of cash while looking lost, and end up getting robbed, you bear none of the formal guilt for the crime itself (e.g. you are not deserving of punishment, etc.) but you might arguably be subject to criticism about your poor judgment skills. Exactly. The problem I see is when there is social pressure to not point out how the actions of a victim were instrumental in becoming one, obviously that doesn’t happen in every case (or most I would say), but doing so eliminates one of the most basic means of education in self preservation. -If you do X you are bound to get Yed sooner or later. -No!, you can’t say that because it’s victim blaming. Then if we stop teaching people that not doing X is in their own best interest we only end up making Yers job easier. ---
**Author:** ![lalaith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/51 "2015-12-23T02:30:36Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I do not believe someone can accidentally rape a woman regardless of her state of inebriation. I guess you didn’t hear about that recent case in the UK. Rich Saudi man acquitted of rape --------- his defense was he fell and his penis accidentally went into the teenage girl sleeping it off on his couch. And I said he was acquitted. The jury bought it. Took them only 30 minutes to deliberate. [http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/12/16/saudi-millionaire-tripped-penetrated-teen-girl-cleared-rape-charge/77416928/](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/12/16/saudi-millionaire-tripped-penetrated-teen-girl-cleared-rape-charge/77416928/) ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/52 "2015-12-23T03:25:31Z")
The story that was bought by the jury was NOT that his penis went into her accidentally. It was that he fell, his hand went into her and that he had his semen on his hand from a previous sexual encounter. ---
**Author:** ![azurill33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@azurill33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azurill33)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/53 "2015-12-23T04:09:36Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > The debate is about moral responsibility, not legal one; as I said in my case when I was hit it would had made no difference if the driver would had been sober or drunk, my actions caused the accident, to me it seems like a double standard to simply switch the responsibility of the outcomes in each case based on the state of the driver. I would had been equally at fault in both instances, the driver being drunk would add another layer of fault into the equation. > > Whitewashing the responsibility of a victim because they got the short end of the stick in a bad situation only serves to create the conditions in which nobody learns from the situation. > > Again I bring up my case, lets say the driver was drunk and everyone tells me “it wasn’t your fault, you didn’t do anything wrong”, I believe it, don’t change my beheaviour and next time I do something similar I get hit again end up dead. > Come to think of it that’s more or less how my GFs brother died, badly injured in bike crash No1 without a helmet, dead on crash No2 again without a helmet, but I digress… > > I think it is counterproductive to not assign an appropriate amount of responsibility to the victims of a crime if by their own actions they put themselves in a dangerous situation; it may sound unpalatable, but shouting down with “Victim blaming!” a deconstruction of the events that lead to a bad situation only ensures that nobody learns what steps could had been taken to prevent the situation in the first place. > > _“I do not believe someone can accidentally rape a woman regardless of her state of inebriation”_ > > Neither do I, but what if the woman puts herself in a vulnerable position by rendering herself unresponsive around men of low moral standards? > If you know that your actions increase the likelihood of something bad happening to you, and you do it anyway then why shouldn’t be you bear some part of the responsibility? > If we eliminate from the social discourse the idea that a victim is ever at fault for anything that leads to a rape we will only end up raising easy victims for the predators around us. Do you think if a (fully sober)woman is raped while wearing “skimpy” clothing like a short skirt with a tank top she is partially at fault /responsible for being raped ? Do you believe there are any situations where the victim DOESN’T bear any responsibility for what happens to them? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/54 "2015-12-23T04:46:17Z")
> [@azurill33](#): > > Do you think if a (fully sober)woman is raped while wearing “skimpy” clothing like a short skirt with a tank top she is partially at fault /responsible for being raped ? Let’s provisionally say “maybe” (pending greater detail about the circumstances) on the basis that whatever fault she has and to whatever degree; it is a completely separate issue from the criminal actions and prosecution of her assailant(s). Is that what you’re going for? We can put the rapist(s) in jail, but we get to sneer at her in the process? Heck, you can sneer at anybody at any time for any reason already. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/55 "2015-12-23T05:00:36Z")
> [@azurill33](#): > > Do you think if a (fully sober)woman is raped while wearing “skimpy” clothing like a short skirt with a tank top she is partially at fault /responsible for being raped ? > Do you believe there are any situations where the victim DOESN’T bear any responsibility for what happens to them? For the case you propose it would depend on the circumstances, for example was she just minding her own business or was she behaving provocatively? As for your second question in post #50 I said that in not all (or even most) cases there is a crime the victim did something that contributed to the situation. Things need to be considered within their context, making blanket judgements regarding moral responsibilities for a particular type of crime is not the way to go, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![azurill33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@azurill33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azurill33)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/56 "2015-12-23T05:31:29Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > For the case you propose it would depend on the circumstances, for example was she just minding her own business or was she behaving provocatively? > > As for your second question in post #50 I said that in not all (or even most) cases there is a crime the victim did something that contributed to the situation. > > Things need to be considered within their context, making blanket judgements regarding moral responsibilities for a particular type of crime is not the way to go, IMHO. If she was simply walking down the street wearing a short skirt and tank top would you still say she is at fault? Who would you say is at fault in this scenario: A black man has sex with a white girl even though he knows that the girl’s father is an out and proud extreme racist( think kkk level) and he lives in an extremely racist town in the jim crow american south. He goes around town bragging about banging a white girl. This of course pissses of the girls father and the local racists. So they form a mob that swarms the black man and then lynches him. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/57 "2015-12-23T05:58:25Z")
Crime victims are responsible, and perps are not-they usually commit crimes because of poor childhoods, discrimination, racism, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/58 "2015-12-23T06:09:00Z")
Just assume a karma-based system and it follows that every victim of assault earned it, with evil actions taken in this or a previous life. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/59 "2015-12-23T09:09:11Z")
It is my right to walk through Central Park of a night time with hundred dollar bills sticking out of my pockets, The chances of me keeping hold of my money are very slim. I could walk into a redneck bar in America’s Bible Belt and promote homosexuality the chances of me leaving without the aid of an ambulance are also slim. It is not about your rights it is about taking responsibility for your own safety ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041/60 "2015-12-24T19:46:49Z")
> [@azurill33](#): > > Or how about this scenario :How about this scenario : A man gets drunk and meets a woman in a bar. The “woman” is actually a MTF preop transsexual but doesn’t tell him this. He goes to her place for sex. They make out and do some heavy petting. The transsexual gets undressed and reveals “she” has a penis. He is so enraged at being “deceived” that he beats her to death in a rage. > > Is the transsexual partially at fault? Would your opinion change if “she” had a history of “tricking” straight men? Your use of quotes around she and woman says an awful lot about you. Of course the lady isn’t at fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-victims-responsible-for-crimes-committed-against-them/741041.md?page=2)