# Are vows of religious mendicancy immoral? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618 "2011-05-29T01:07:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/1 "2011-05-29T01:07:13Z")
There are mendicant orders in several religions: Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam. The basic idea is that members of the religious order take a vow to remain poor and only live off of the charity of other people. The justification for this is that the poverty teaches the members of the order to turn away from material possessions and that it gives the community an opportunity to practice charity. But the presumption of the vow is that it’s a voluntary condition - they wouldn’t have to vow to remain poor and live off charity if they didn’t feel there was an alternative. And under those circumstances, is mendicancy immoral? The amount that will be given by charity is a finite resource. And many people don’t choose to be poor, they just have poverty thrust upon them. So is it right for people to volunteer to be poor for religious reasons and consume a share of the charity that might otherwise have gone to the involuntarily poor? Wouldn’t it be better for religious mendicants to renounce charity for themselves, become self-sufficient, and encourage the community (and themselves) to give charity to the poor that remain? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/2 "2011-05-29T02:33:36Z")
I am not surehow it is ordered in other religions, but in Christianity, the poverty is of the individual, not the order. There are two issues in that regard. The first is that a mendicant religious community is expected to provide service to the larger community. The members of the religious community are not simply supposed to beg alms for their own, individual survival, but are expected to pool their resources, (keeping nothing for themselves, individually), to build shelters and hospitals for the poor of the world. The second is that the number of mendicant orders is rather small. Most orders are self-sufficient, employing actual trades that generate income, (Benedictines farm, Basilians and Christian Brothers teach, etc.), and the income of any individual member is pooled in the common fund for disbursement. Even the Franciscans–the one truly mendicant order when it was founded–have moved far from begging alms to take positions as income-gathering teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/3 "2011-05-29T03:21:20Z")
There’s a distinction between poverty and mendicancy. Mendicancy specifically means living off of the charity of others. So a group that is self-sufficient or collecting alms to distribute to other people is not a true mendicant order. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/4 "2011-05-29T03:27:00Z")
Jesus was a medicant, so if it was ok for Jesus… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/5 "2011-05-29T03:51:05Z")
Am I the only one who saw the title as _"Are vows of religious mendacity immoral?_" Gave me a bit of a double take there. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/6 "2011-05-29T03:55:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s a distinction between poverty and mendicancy. Mendicancy specifically means living off of the charity of others. So a group that is self-sufficient or collecting alms to distribute to other people is not a true mendicant order. Catholics have a bunch of “Mendicant Orders” that were founded as true mendicant orders, but had their rules relaxed towards the end of the Middle Ages to the point where they no longer needed to live off charity, and could own property (that is, the Order could, the monks were still vowed to poverty). I don’t know if there are any left that still really exist off charity without owning anything. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/7 "2011-05-29T04:04:14Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I don’t know if there are any left that still really exist off charity without owning anything. What prompted this was me hearing about existing Buddhist orders. The monks (known as Bhikkus) go out every morning with begging bowls and go door-to-door begging for their food for that day (they follow strict requirements that prohibit storing food from one day to the next or eating after noon). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/8 "2011-05-29T04:16:18Z")
I’ve talked with former nuns of mendicant orders who have sued over it. I think in this world we live in that there should be some provision for those who leave. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/9 "2011-05-29T06:01:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The amount that will be given by [to?] charity is a finite resource. That’s a pretty big assumption. Not infinite, of course, but very easily elastic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/10 "2011-05-29T12:46:34Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > That’s a pretty big assumption. Not infinite, of course, but very easily elastic. I think it’s a reasonable assumption. People have a finite amount of assets after all. And they have their own personal expenses. So most people only have so much money (or other goods) they can or will give away. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/11 "2011-05-29T14:47:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Am I the only one who saw the title as _"Are vows of religious mendacity immoral?_" No, you weren’t. > [@DtC](#): > > Jesus was a medicant, so if it was ok for Jesus… Yeah, but there was the whole dying to save the world for eternal damnation thingy that sorta made up for it. Most of us don’t have that going for us. And he could magically feed a crowd of thousands with a a few loaves and fishes, too. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/12 "2011-05-29T14:53:09Z")
He told his followers to live that way too, though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/13 "2011-05-29T15:00:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He told his followers to live that way too, though. True. I was just trying to be funny, though, because it’s hard to see someone as being poor when he can turn water into wine, make food multiply, and raise the dead. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/14 "2011-05-29T16:23:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What prompted this was me hearing about existing Buddhist orders. The monks (known as Bhikkus) go out every morning with begging bowls and go door-to-door begging for their food for that day (they follow strict requirements that prohibit storing food from one day to the next or eating after noon). I think Bhikkhu Thannisaro put it best in his article [The Economy of Gifts](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/economy.html): > [@](#): > > For the donors, the alms round is a reminder that the monetary economy is not the only way to happiness. It helps to keep a society sane when there are monastics infiltrating the towns every morning, embodying an ethos very different from the dominant monetary economy. The gently subversive quality of this custom helps people to keep their values straight. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/15 "2011-05-29T16:28:29Z")
With our modern technology, I don’t think it’s a lack of goods that is the problem. It’s the distribution of said goods. In fact, we’re probably producing _too much_ stuff and are hurting the environment because of it. From that standpoint, a group of people who are celibate (helping to keep us from being overpopulated) and only consume the barest minimum are good for the environment. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/16 "2011-05-29T17:55:28Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > With our modern technology, I don’t think it’s a lack of goods that is the problem. It’s the distribution of said goods. In fact, we’re probably producing _too much_ stuff and are hurting the environment because of it. > > From that standpoint, a group of people who are celibate (helping to keep us from being overpopulated) and only consume the barest minimum are good for the environment. Yea. My (possibly incorrect) impression is that in medieval times the amount of wealth that could be created wasn’t limited by the number of workers, but by the amount of land that could be put in production. In that case, the monks aren’t hurting anyone by removing themselves from the worker pools, and probably helping by consuming fewer resources then the average peasant. In modern times, in the US, we have more then enough productivity to produce enough essentials for everyone, even if a few workers opt out. So its still not a problem. Dunno about places where there are likely to be a lot of Buddhist Mendicant. I imagine there might be societies where productivity is such that they just barely produce enough to cover everyones essential needs. In such a place Mendicancy might be immoral, but then, I suspect in such places they’re aware of the situation and Mendicacy would be discouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vows-of-religious-mendicancy-immoral/583618/17 "2011-05-29T18:42:29Z")
It should probably be pointed out that the communities which support religious medicants do so because they believe the monks are doing something which spiritually benefits the community as a whole. The belief is that Buddhist monks are living these vows on the community’s (or even on the world’s) behalf.