# Are Vulcans Possible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249 "2018-01-09T17:23:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/21 "2018-01-09T21:24:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Learning to control yourself and becoming a peaceful and purely rational actor are quite different. Spartans learned to control themselves so they would be better at slaughtering others. Vulcans are not pacifists. They’re perfectly capable of fighting and killing when doing so is…logical. Anyway, the point is that the Lakedemonians deliberately cultivated their famous murderous stoicism, and invented all sorts of systems to indoctrinate their children into it. It wasn’t something that came naturally, it was a system to create a certain type of person who was fitted to a certain social order, and it sounds like a living hell to me. Note that the Spartiates themselves were only a small fraction of the population of the territory they ruled, the majority being helots kept in brutal slavery, brutal even by the standards of antiquity. Their system enabled the Spartans to win military victory after military victory and rule their lands for ages, and all it cost them was their souls. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/22 "2018-01-09T21:32:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Vulcans exist, they’re called sociopaths. They are people whose emotions are mostly controlled and who have to use logic and reasoning a lot more to compensate for the fact that they don’t have emotional motivations. Sociopaths are not emotionless, and are not generally speaking any more logical than other people. What they are is lacking in genuine empathy (although some sociopaths are very good at synthesizing empathic responses and manipulating other people emotionally) and any sense of remorse or responsibility over how their actions affect others. Some sociopaths have difficulty intrepeting any emotions and are compelled to commit crimes to feel a sense of excitement or stimulation (this is the general distinction made between psychopaths and ‘ordinary’ sociopaths) but the notion of the logical genius serial killer or expert manipulator like Hannibal Lector is basically the construct of screenwriters and thriller novelists; for the most part, these predators take advantage of people who are emotionally inexperienced or socially isolated. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/23 "2018-01-09T22:22:35Z")
Stranger said what I wanted to say only a whole lot more of it. In short, Vulcans have emotions, and according to Spock, they feel them quite strongly. They’ve learned to control the expression of those emotions, and curtail impulsiveness, and they also highly value intellect, incredible memory recall capacity it would seem from watching the various Star Trek shows, and education as part of that conditioning and control. They are still influenced by their emotions. Long before there was any sign of the “Vulcan Alzheimers” that was his fate, Sarek himself said his logic was uncertain where his son was concerned. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/24 "2018-01-09T22:46:45Z")
But there is also some implied physical aspect to the whole “emotion suppression” thing. On the Original Series episode about the farm colony with the happy spores, Spock is in danger of dying when he is forced to feel emotions. I suppose you could hand-wave that away as being psychosomatic, but I do think there is an implied biological aspect to Vulcans and their lack of emotions and not just a bunch of mental tricks. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/25 "2018-01-09T23:05:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But there is also some implied physical aspect to the whole “emotion suppression” thing. On the Original Series episode about the farm colony with the happy spores, Spock is in danger of dying when he is forced to feel emotions. I suppose you could hand-wave that away as being psychosomatic, but I do think there is an implied biological aspect to Vulcans and their lack of emotions and not just a bunch of mental tricks. ”Kid, it ain’t that kind of movie.” I’m pretty sure we’ve put more thought into the neurophysiology and evolutionary psychology of _Star Trek_ in this thread alone than the collective mental effort of everyone involved in the franchise has in the last forty-odd years, even handicapping the spasmatic J.J. Abrams side-boot movies out of the equation. _Star Trek_ was originally intended to be _Wagon Train_ to the stars, _TNG_ it’s _Love Boat_ cousin, _Deep Space 9_ the _X-Files_ offshoot, and _Voyager_ was an interstellar _Gilligan’s Island_. The _Star Trek_ narrative universe and the alien species within it make about as much sense as life insurance for kamakazi pilots. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/26 "2018-01-09T23:22:19Z")
i kinda thought this thread would be asking about the plausibility of copper-based hemoglobin. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/27 "2018-01-09T23:34:50Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Vulcans are not pacifists. They’re perfectly capable of fighting and killing when doing so is…logical. Actually, in the series _Star Trek_, there were several references to Spock (and Vulcans in general) being pacifist. On more than one occasion, Kirk over-rules Spock’s attempts at generating a peaceful resolution. And no, it wasn’t just because peace was more “logical”. But being pacifist doesn’t mean refusing to use force ever. Hence, Spock’s recommendations in “Run Silent, Run…” er, that is, “Balance of Terror.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/28 "2018-01-09T23:48:17Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Also, I vaguely remember asking a similar question in the past. But it has been so long, I honestly don’t know. Now, the search option for this site won’t work for me (I **do** remember posting that once;)). So if anyone knows what I am talking about, feel free to post a link. Was it this? > [@What Would Reptillians Really Be Like?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-reptillians-really-be-like/758021/17): > > You actually provide me with an opportunity to make clear what I meant. I think I meant a couple of things, actually. > > I guess I have to confess, I was partly inspired by _Star Trek_, and Vulcans, specifically. Vulcans have no emotions. Now, I am not saying there could be an alien civilization with _no_ emotions. But what about just, say, less emotions, or more blunted emotions? This actually would make a good thread in itself (can a humanoid civilization exist, where the “people” have no emotions?). ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/29 "2018-01-09T23:50:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But there is also some implied physical aspect to the whole “emotion suppression” thing. On the Original Series episode about the farm colony with the happy spores, Spock is in danger of dying when he is forced to feel emotions. I suppose you could hand-wave that away as being psychosomatic, but I do think there is an implied biological aspect to Vulcans and their lack of emotions and not just a bunch of mental tricks. I believe you’re misremembering. In “This Side of Paradise,” no one was ever in danger of dying from the spores. Quite the opposite. They were protected against the Berthold rays bombarding the planet and were left in perfect health when their emotional influence was overcome. The closest I can think of Spock coming to harm because of emotions was in “All Our Yesterdays,” when he began to “revert” to how Vulcans once were after traveling 5,000 years into the past. Though it was made clear he was in danger because he hadn’t been properly “prepared” at the cellular level, it was also apparent the change in his physiology affected his control over his emotions, indicating this aspect of him was due to both cultural conditioning and evolutionary biology. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/30 "2018-01-09T23:59:13Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Actually, in the series _Star Trek_, there were several references to Spock (and Vulcans in general) being pacifist. On more than one occasion, Kirk over-rules Spock’s attempts at generating a peaceful resolution. And no, it wasn’t just because peace was more “logical”. In “Arena,” Spock reluctantly agrees that the Gorn ship must never be allowed to reach its home base after attacking Cestus III. He also overrules McCoy’s objections to destroying the Romulan ship in “Balance of Terror” by emphasizing that if the Romulans are Vulcan offshoots, weakness is something they dare not show. Vulcans in the Parallel Universe, while still logical, also seem to be a particularly nasty lot. In “Mirror, Mirror,” Evil Sulu nearly shits his pants when Evil Spock reminds him that “My operatives would avenge my death … and some of \*them \*are Vulcans.” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/31 "2018-01-10T00:03:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > i kinda thought this thread would be asking about the plausibility of copper-based hemoglobin. Are there not organisms on Earth that have such blood? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/32 "2018-01-10T00:27:40Z")
I think that the “Vulcans are pacifists” thing goes along with “Vulcans never lie”. That is to say, both are things that we only know to be true because Vulcans tell us so. Which doesn’t mean that they actually _are_ pacifists or always truthful-- They just find it logical to make other races believe that they are. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/33 "2018-01-10T00:33:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that the “Vulcans are pacifists” thing goes along with “Vulcans never lie”. That is to say, both are things that we only know to be true because Vulcans tell us so. Which doesn’t mean that they actually _are_ pacifists or always truthful-- They just find it logical to make other races believe that they are. Like most people who claim to follow Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or any other) teachings, they may \*try \*but that doesn’t mean they actually _do_. Maybe they just feel better about themselves that way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/34 "2018-01-10T00:35:01Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Are there not organisms on Earth that have such blood? I see you are correct and I probably knew that but had forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/35 "2018-01-10T01:26:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that the “Vulcans are pacifists” thing goes along with “Vulcans never lie”. That is to say, both are things that we only know to be true because Vulcans tell us so. Which doesn’t mean that they actually _are_ pacifists or always truthful-- They just find it logical to make other races believe that they are. Sedak: These humans are quite…gullible. T’Pong: They are indeed. They should make an excellent servitor race. Sedak: Their native aggression may be useful in provoking the Klingons into a war that will weaken both so we can exploit them more easily. T’Pong: They do appear to engage in pointless conflict with themselves with great frequency. I like your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsbeacon. Sedak: We should also tell them that we are vegetarians so they do not get suspicious when we invite some of them back to our ship ‘for dinner’, wink wink, nudge nudge. T’Pong: That is very…logical. Hah, we can pretend we don’t understand what they mean because of logic! Sedak: You are catching on quickly, T’Pong. Now, quick, let’s do a happy dance before they return. _celebratory energetic grinding ensues to the tune of Pharrell Williams “Happy”_ Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/36 "2018-01-10T01:33:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Sedak: These humans are quite…gullible. > T’Pong: They are indeed. They should make an excellent servitor race. > Sedak: Their native aggression may be useful in provoking the Klingons into a war that will weaken both so we can exploit them more easily. > T’Pong: They do appear to engage in pointless conflict with themselves with great frequency. I like your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsbeacon. > Sedak: We should also tell them that we are vegetarians so they do not get suspicious when we invite some of them back to our ship ‘for dinner’, wink wink, nudge nudge. > T’Pong: That is very…logical. Hah, we can pretend we don’t understand what they mean because of logic! > Sedak: You are catching on quickly, T’Pong. Now, quick, let’s do a happy dance before they return. > _celebratory energetic grinding ensues to the tune of Pharrell Williams “Happy”_ > > Stranger I wish to subscribe to **your** newsbeacon. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/37 "2018-01-10T01:33:48Z")
Since they portray Vulcans, in some portrayals, as barely controlled logic machines over a seething ocean of emotion, could you imagine the infrastructure they’d need to deal with all of the breakdowns? “I can’t take it anymore! I’m living a lie! My life is a swirling mass of emotions and I can’t show it. You won’t let me show it. I can’t hide it anymore. I can’t. I can’t. I FEEL THESE THINGS! I can’t pretend I don’t! It isn’t LOGICAL!!!” “_sigh_ Freakout in Sector 7-243B. Send the carts.” “Third one this week, Frank.” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/38 "2018-01-10T02:34:45Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Since they portray Vulcans, in some portrayals, as barely controlled logic machines over a seething ocean of emotion, could you imagine the infrastructure they’d need to deal with all of the breakdowns? That’s why they developed things like the mind meld and nerve pinch, and über-ritualized the mating protocol. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/39 "2018-01-10T03:02:47Z")
I watched the new episodes of _Star Trek,_ and they don’t even attempt to keep it subtle: the “Vulcan hello” consists of opening up on sight of the enemy with overwhelming force, the ruling Vulcans are straight-up racist (no humans allowed in the Academy), they have various factions of “logical terrorists” gadding about, things like that. Speaking of Star Trek, if we were meant to understand Klingons = Soviets, Federation = USA, Romulans = Chinese, then who were the Vulcans? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249/40 "2018-01-10T03:12:31Z")
FWIW, Romulans were given that name because it was thought their culture bore some resemblance to Ancient Rome, and they lived their beliefs with great dignity. The Klingons were vicious pond scum with absolutely no redeeming features, not poorly understood noble-but-somewhat-dim warriors. Spock was originally supposed to be half-Martian, but the red makeup looked phoney when photographed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-vulcans-possible/806249.md?page=3)