# Are waiters told to remove dying people from a restaurant to avoid investigation?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 24, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190 "2009-02-24T14:29:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/21 "2009-02-25T00:30:29Z")
Who knows what the hell they tell WSJ employees? I actually had someone die, or at least have a heart attack, the very first day I worked my own tables in a restaurant on Clearwater Beach. This was probably in 1983 or so. It was a six top table, with three elderly couples. I brought them their salads, then took drink orders from the two top. I removed the salad plates, then came back to bring their lunch course.
One of the women said, “Harry, wake up, lunch is here. Harry?” I rushed out to tell the manager that I had killed one of my first customers, then we called 911 (or whatever number you called back then). The paramedics came and hauled him away, administering CPR. I’m not sure if he died or was resuscitated. Fortunately for the restaurant this was a small station toward the back, with an access to the exterior, so the ambulance crew didn’t have to come in past everyone.
I worked at that place for a year or two, and never heard about it again. Never had that happen again, either. Didn’t get a tip from my first table, which was sort of a disappointment, but understandable.
Note, there are a lot of old, relatively wealthy people in this area. It was a VERY short time from the call until help arrived. Seemed like less than a minute.
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### Author:  [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/22 "2009-02-25T00:40:55Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#):
>
> My uncle who was on a rescue squad tells a story about having to transport a victim and his head separately, yet the patient was not pronounced dead until reaching the hospital. … He’s been retired for some years.
This guy without a head… what did he retire _from_ and how long had he worked there?
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### Author:  [@Number](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/23 "2009-02-25T01:42:52Z")
> [@Khadaji](#):
>
> Sounds like an urban legend.
It’s similar to a legend about [Disney theme parks](http://www.snopes.com/disney/parks/declare.asp).
Some former employees have claimed it’s true, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot of proof available.
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### Author:  [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/24 "2009-02-25T02:42:53Z")
> [@Driver8](#):
>
> Do they use the same “Priority 4” for “not in need of medical attention” if the reason is that the guy is actually perfectly fine?
Well, technically, yes - but if we rolled up on an accident, with one patient who is obviously dead, one patient who needs to go to the hospital with injuries and one who fine and does not need medical attention, we’d say, “We have one Priority 4, one transport and one refusal.”
> [@Velma](#):
>
> What if they are just plain dead when you get there, not of something like a decapitation? My boss had a heart attack here at work. Coworkers immediately performed CPR until paramedics got here, and they worked on him some more, but he was dead and was never taken to a hospital at all. They did call the police (or was it the coroner?) to come confirm it though, but it took a few hours and his body just remained here that whole time. So they must have decided he was dead and not in need of transport at some point.
As a lowly EMT-B, I cannot declare death unless there are obvious fatal injuries. In the case of someone needing CPR, once CPR is started, it must continue, until I get medical direction over the radio from a doctor that I can stop.
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### Author:  [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/25 "2009-02-25T03:07:04Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#):
>
> In my experience with emergency treatment is that most first responders do not have the authority to declare someone dead on the scene. They have to wait until an MD pronounces them. My uncle who was on a rescue squad tells a story about having to transport a victim and his head separately, yet the patient was not pronounced dead until reaching the hospital. It’s a very old story, and changing medical practices may have altered this. He’s been retired for some years.
>
> In actual practice a heart attack victim would be simply transported, and no one would know where they were when they died.
In most places, that’s no longer true. The exact procedure is going to vary a great deal. In Denver, paramedics can pronounce cases of obvious death of our own accord. We note the time of death and the police notify the coroner. If any resuscitation is attempted and in certain other cases (pregnant patients, hypothermia and others) we make contact with our medical control doctor. EMT-Basics can pronounce obvious death in consultation with a doctor. Most of the surrounding agencies require base contact for all pronouncements.
> [@whiterabbit](#):
>
> I would assume this would vary by state, or possibly even county within state.
It can vary even more than that. In some places, there can be 2 agencies in the same town with different protocols. :eek: EMS in the U.S. is very fragmented- the D.O.T. sets curriculum standards. Each state defines it’s own scope of practice for each level of EMS provider. From there, each agency uses it’s own set of protocols for the specifics.
> [@Velma](#):
>
> What if they are just plain dead when you get there, not of something like a decapitation? My boss had a heart attack here at work. Coworkers immediately performed CPR until paramedics got here, and they worked on him some more, but he was dead and was never taken to a hospital at all. They did call the police (or was it the coroner?) to come confirm it though, but it took a few hours and his body just remained here that whole time. So they must have decided he was dead and not in need of transport at some point.
Again this varies. When I go on a cardiac arrest, I have 3 options: attempt resuscitation and transport, attempt resuscitation and pronounce, or pronounce without resuscitation. In a medical cardiac arrest (not trauma), the care you get from paramedics should be identical to what you’d get in the emergency department. So if we start resuscitation and the patient deteriorates or fails to improve, there’s no point in transporting them to the hospital.
Everywhere I’ve worked, once a patient is pronounced, the police will stay on scene and wait for the coroner/medical examiner. Perhaps **Loach** or another LEO can explain what and how they investigate…
St. Urho
Paramedic
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### Author:  [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/26 "2009-02-25T08:04:56Z")
This may be a misunderstanding of food safety laws.
There are many regulations regarding food preparation areas. And if a person died in such an area, the local health department would probably require careful cleaning of the area, which would probably entail closing the restaurant for a while. But not for any great while – probably not more than 1 day.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/27 "2009-02-25T08:36:25Z")
Not an answer but some anecdotes. In New Jersey doctors have to pronounce death. They can do it through the paramedics on scene. They use portable telemetry and cellphones to do this. If death is pronounced at the scene the body stays there until the ME or a funeral home arrives (depending on the circumstances).
I remember clearly having a heart attack victim in the foyer of a Charlie Brown’s Steakhouse. Not only was he not moved by the staff, the customers had no problem stepping over him to get inside. Luckily he survived and was transported to the hospital.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 25, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-waiters-told-to-remove-dying-people-from-a-restaurant-to-avoid-investigation/487190/28 "2009-02-25T14:49:13Z")
> [@Loach](#):
>
> …I remember clearly having a heart attack victim in the foyer of a Charlie Brown’s Steakhouse… Not only was he not moved by the staff, the customers had no problem stepping over him to get inside…
“Dammit, Linus, I _said_ I want a steak, and I want it \*now!” \*
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