# Are we at Trump’s tipping point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 21, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944 "2018-03-21T03:29:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/381 "2018-04-15T02:05:42Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > 40%? _sigh_ Who are these people, and why do they support him? I feel like we’re living in a slightly shifted parallel reality. One where their Trump is very different than the one the rest of us see. According to [Gallup](http://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx) (scroll down), thump’s approval among Republicans is 89%. > [@](#): > > 2018 Apr 2-8 > Republicans- 89% > Independents- 35% > Democrats- 8% ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/382 "2018-04-15T02:06:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Re: the OP. > > Adam Davidson of the New Yorker: [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] There are lots of details and surprises to come, but the endgame of this Presidency seems as clear now as those of Iraq and the financial crisis did months before they unfolded. Last week, federal investigators raided the offices of Michael Cohen, the man who has been closer than anybody to Trump’s most problematic business and personal relationships. This week, we learned that Cohen has been under criminal investigation for months—his e-mails have been read, presumably his phones have been tapped, and his meetings have been monitored. > > Trump has long declared a red line: Robert Mueller must not investigate his businesses, and must only look at any possible collusion with Russia. That red line is now crossed and, for Trump, in the most troubling of ways. Even if he were to fire Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and then had Mueller and his investigation put on ice, and even if—as is disturbingly possible—Congress did nothing, the Cohen prosecution would continue. Even if Trump pardons Cohen, the information the Feds have on him can become the basis for charges against others in the Trump Organization.[sup]1[/sup] > > This is the week we know, with increasing certainty, that we are entering the last phase of the Trump Presidency. This doesn’t feel like a prophecy; it feels like a simple statement of the apparent truth. > > I know dozens of reporters and other investigators who have studied Donald Trump and his business and political ties. Some have been skeptical of the idea that President Trump himself knowingly colluded with Russian officials. …However, I am unaware of anybody who has taken a serious look at Trump’s business who doesn’t believe that there is a high likelihood of rampant criminality. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] Ok, ok, but 40% of the country is in the tank, right? And his supporters knew he wasn’t a saint when they elected him. So how is this any different? > > It’s different argues Davidson. He recalls his 2003 reporting in Iraq, when on the ground it was immediately clear that the US’s reconstruction plans _unworkable_ while Bush had approval ratings north of 70% and was making his Mission Accomplished speech. He recalls his reporting on the financial crisis, when he realized that the asset base of our largest banks was crap. There is often a gulf between perception and reality. But that doesn’t imply that consensus views can’t change: they can and do and sometimes must. > > [Michael Cohen and the End Stage of the Trump Presidency | The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/michael-cohen-and-the-end-stage-of-the-trump-presidency) > > ## Last 5 sentences, emphasis added: [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] We don’t know the precise path the next few months will take. There will be resistance and denial and counterattacks. But it seems likely that, when we look back on this week, we will see it as a **turning point**. We are now in the end stages of the Trump Presidency. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] > > [sup]1[/sup]So I guess Trump will have to provide blanket pardons to perhaps a half dozen or more people. Respect for democratic norms won’t be much of a constraint for Trump. Though a Democratic majority might be. Ok, it takes 2/3 for impeachment. Would the GOP really play along? Erick Erickson is the founder of Red State: he interviewed an anonymous Congressional friend of his in Safeway, far away from Capitol Hill. His friend needed to vent: [INDENT][INDENT][INDENT] He may be an idiot, but he’s still the President and leader of my party and he is capable of doing some things right. But dammit he’s taking us all down with him. We are well and truly f **ked in November….It’s like Forrest Gump won the presidency, but an evil, really f\*cking stupid Forrest Gump. He can’t help himself. He’s just a f** king idiot who thinks he’s winning when people are b\*tching about him. > > ….If we get to summer and most of the primaries are over, they just might pull the trigger if the President fires Mueller. The sh\*t will hit the fan if that happens and I’d vote to impeach him myself. Most of us would, I think. Hell, all the Democrats would and you only need a majority in the House. If we’re going to lose because of him, we might as well impeach the motherf\*\*ker. > > ….I say a lot of shit on TV defending him, even over this. But honestly, I wish the motherf_cker would just go away. We’re going to lose the House, lose the Senate, and lose a bunch of states because of him. All his supporters will blame us for what we have or have not done, but he hasn’t led. He wakes up in the morning, sh_ts all over Twitter, sh_ts all over us, sh_ts all over his staff, then hits golf balls. F\*ck him. Of course, I can’t say that in public or I’d get run out of town. [/INDENT][/INDENT][/INDENT] > [Check Out This Epic Safeway Rant – Mother Jones](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/04/check-out-this-epic-safeway-rant/) I think it’s not quite valid to compare Trump’s legal problems to the Iraq war. Trump is an elected official – the ultimate elected official in the land. A lot of people would be full of piss if the system were to make a move on Trump… **at least for now**. I do see trouble ahead for Trump but for somewhat different reasons. I think the real problem that Trump has is that it’s going to be increasingly difficult to find anyone worth a shit, anyone who has the slightest clue as to what they’re doing to work for/with him. In short, the most challenging and grueling executive job on the planet is going to be increasingly supported by unqualified buffoons. At present, Trump still hasn’t done any damage to the country that the average person can detect. But in time, that will change. And we’re probably not that far off from that time. But we’re all going to pay first with a piece of our ass. We don’t elect a moron as president without paying a price. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/383 "2018-04-15T03:36:21Z")
I want to make sure I don’t misrepresent Davidson’s argument. Mueller has crossed a red line: he raided Cohen’s office and it’s clear he’s attacking Trump’s businesses. Trump’s businesses are drenched in criminality, to a degree that Davidson believes is not appreciated by the public. To use the tired stock market metaphor, there’s a Trump bubble, notwithstanding his low popularity. Just as there was a financial bubble in 2005-2007 and an Iraqi bubble immediately after the invasion. According to Davidson’s view (he doesn’t use this metaphor). This is entirely separate from the possibility that Trump somehow runs the economy into the ground (or presides incompetently during a financial crisis). Or gets into a pointless war with Iran, North Korea, or Syria. Or any other sort of allegedly dull witted stumbling. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/384 "2018-04-15T03:58:30Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This is entirely separate from the possibility that Trump somehow runs the economy into the ground (or presides incompetently during a financial crisis). Or gets into a pointless war with Iran, North Korea, or Syria. Or any other sort of allegedly dull witted stumbling. My fear is that we are transitioning from stumbling to “thrashing”. Just remembered why I used that word. About thirty years ago, I had a coworker melt down and before he got himself fired, he was throwing lies and blame at everyone in a pathetic attempt to keep his head above water. One of the VPs warned me “Watch out for Gary, a drowning whale thrashes enough to capsize any boat.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/385 "2018-04-15T10:39:09Z")
The crux of that argument is: “Trump has long declared a red line: Robert Mueller must not investigate his businesses, and must only look at any possible collusion with Russia.”. But is that really true? Looking into it, [here’s what I found:](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-red-line-finances_us_5a26aa6ee4b0f9f0203f5571) > [@](#): > > SCHMIDT: Last thing, if Mueller was looking at your finances and your family finances, unrelated to Russia — is that a red line? > > HABERMAN: Would that be a breach of what his actual charge is? > > TRUMP: I would say yeah. I would say yes. By the way, I would say, I don’t — I don’t — I mean, it’s possible there’s a condo or something, so, you know, I sell a lot of condo units, and somebody from Russia buys a condo, who knows? I don’t make money from Russia. … > > SCHMIDT: But if he was outside that lane, would that mean he’d have to go? [crosstalk] > > HABERMAN: Would you consider ― > > TRUMP: No, I think that’s a violation. Look, this is about Russia. So I think if he wants to go, my finances are extremely good, my company is an unbelievably successful company. And actually, when I do my filings, peoples say, “Man.” People have no idea how successful this is. It’s a great company. But I don’t even think about the company anymore. I think about this. ’Cause one thing, when you do this, companies seem very trivial. O.K.? I really mean that. They seem very trivial. But I have no income from Russia. I don’t do business with Russia. … > > HABERMAN: Would you fire Mueller if he went outside of certain parameters of what his charge is? [crosstalk] > > SCHMIDT: What would you do? [crosstalk] > > TRUMP: I can’t, I can’t answer that question because I don’t think it’s going to happen. That sounds more like a reporter asking a leading question rather than Trump making a meaningful declaration. If that is what is being reference to as Trump “long declaring” this, I’d say that’s extrapolating well beyond what the evidence actually is. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/386 "2018-04-15T12:59:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The crux of that argument is: “Trump has long declared a red line: Robert Mueller must not investigate his businesses, and must only look at any possible collusion with Russia.”. But is that really true? Looking into it, [here’s what I found:](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-red-line-finances_us_5a26aa6ee4b0f9f0203f5571) > > That sounds more like a reporter asking a leading question rather than Trump making a meaningful declaration. If that is what is being reference to as Trump “long declaring” this, I’d say that’s extrapolating well beyond what the evidence actually is. And then there’s the fact that thump doesn’t remember what he says from minute to minute. He is incapable of making a “meaningful declaration.” He doesn’t have a Place where he Stands and from which he states his Positions and _\_ Policies. He’s like the river that Heraclitus says we can’t step into twice. There’s no consistency or even repeatability. There’s no center, no \*there \*there. And this conversation took place in December, 2017? Ancient history. I mean, we can hold him to it, 'cause he did say it, and someone wrote it down, and stuck it on the internet. But with him, even something that might be labeled a meaningful declaration-- \ it’s like sticking jello to a greased wall. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/387 "2018-04-15T13:06:43Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > And then there’s the fact that thump doesn’t remember what he says from minute to minute. He is incapable of making a “meaningful declaration.” He doesn’t have a Place where he Stands and from which he states his Positions and _\_ Policies. He’s like the river that Heraclitus says we can’t step into twice. There’s no consistency or even repeatability. There’s no center, no \*there \*there. > > And this conversation took place in December, 2017? Ancient history. > > I mean, we can hold him to it, 'cause he did say it, and someone wrote it down, and stuck it on the internet. But with him, even something that might be labeled a meaningful declaration-- \ it’s like sticking jello to a greased wall. True. But he didn’t even say it. The reporter said it, and it wasn’t even clear when Trump said “yes”, which question he was answering, as there were two questions asked and only one used the term “red line”. And that answer he gave was a garbled mess. If I’m to believe that Trump has “long declared” something, there should be evidence of him actually “declaring” it several times over some number of months. Now, maybe that occurred and my Google search didn’t turn it up. If so, maybe someone can link to the instances being referred to. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/388 "2018-04-15T13:33:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I want to make sure I don’t misrepresent Davidson’s argument. Mueller has crossed a red line: he raided Cohen’s office and it’s clear he’s attacking Trump’s businesses. Trump’s businesses are drenched in criminality, to a degree that Davidson believes is not appreciated by the public. I think the people who got Trump elected are mostly aware that he is a criminal. Remember, this is the guy who got elected with eyes wide open after basically bragging about sexual assault on tape. The public knew about Trump University and other scams. He still got elected. His public approval rating is nearing its high point for his entire presidency. Even many of those who don’t like Trump and didn’t vote for him have accepted him as part of our reality. The political pundits keep insisting that this is another Watergate and that Trump is nearing some sort of tipping point. I think even those who write about Watergate don’t really understand why Nixon was chased from office. It’s not because he was caught on tape breaking laws; it’s because the country was tearing itself apart over how to end the war in Vietnam and we were dealing with energy crises and economic recessions - American voters were in a really bad mood. If the economy had been chugging along near full employment and if we had somehow ‘won’ in Vietnam, Watergate would have been a footnote in history. Whether by losing elections or through the impeachment process, presidents get thrown out of office when voters are angry and feeling pessimistic about their future. It has nothing to do with upholding democratic, constitutional, or legal principles - the average voter doesn’t really relate to any of that. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > To use the tired stock market metaphor, there’s a Trump bubble, notwithstanding his low popularity. Just as there was a financial bubble in 2005-2007 and an Iraqi bubble immediately after the invasion. According to Davidson’s view (he doesn’t use this metaphor). The Iraq war was, like Vietnam, an embarrassment for the United States, an embarrassment with deadly consequences that killed young men and women in America’s heartland. The financial crisis devastated financial and real estate markets, and eliminated millions of jobs in less than a year. Both the Iraq war and the financial crises had very real consequences that even typically conservative voters had no choice but to acknowledge. What I’m saying is that until something happens to the American voter that shakes their confidence and optimism about their own future, Trump voters have no reason to abandon Trump. And they won’t. But eventually, his policies are going to have consequences for the average person, and when they do, they’re going to blame him for their misery. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > This is entirely separate from the possibility that Trump somehow runs the economy into the ground (or presides incompetently during a financial crisis). Or gets into a pointless war with Iran, North Korea, or Syria. Or any other sort of allegedly dull witted stumbling. I am a fierce critic of the Bush administration, but I can at least acknowledge that during the last financial crisis, we were fortunate that Bush had at least reasonable and **competent** around him who understood that there was a time for ideology, and a time for dealing with reality. They abandoned their free market ideology and wasted little time in using the New Deal era tools at their disposal. They also showed a rare display of leadership in working with Congress in getting TARP passed during a tumultuous time, and during an intense presidential campaign season no less. But more important than their rationality was their competence: they recognized the symptoms of financial disaster, quickly diagnosed and identified its causes, knew which medicines were available in their medicine cabinet, and quickly implemented the cure. I have much less confidence in Trump’s ability to do that if and when a financial crisis were to occur again in the next several years. There’s a very good chance that the next recession becomes an all-out depression. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/389 "2018-04-15T14:28:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think the people who got Trump elected are mostly aware that he is a criminal. Remember, this is the guy who got elected with eyes wide open after basically bragging about sexual assault on tape. \ Umm… ‘Eyes wide open’? Did his ‘public’, his ‘base’ know about his decades of dirt? Now, I think it’s probably true that many knew what a reprobate he is, and just don’t care. They identify with him. Even applaud him for being such an asshole. But how much did they know? Many of these people only get their news from FOX, if that. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/390 "2018-04-15T14:37:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I want to make sure I don’t misrepresent Davidson’s argument. Mueller has crossed a red line: he raided Cohen’s office and it’s clear he’s attacking Trump’s businesses. Trump’s businesses are drenched in criminality, to a degree that Davidson believes is not appreciated by the public. Beyond the analysis of this, above, I have to correct something. To state it baldly, the Cohen raid was not, except very tangentially, Mueller’s doing. This has been very clear in the reporting if one pays attention. Mueller found something - we don’t know what - and reported it as he’s required to do. He sent it up the line for consideration. At that point, Mueller and the Russia investigation are completely out of the reportable picture. Each decision from that point on - consideration, decision to pursue warrants, decision to issue warrant, decision to raid all at once - was made by someone else. FBI, DoJ, judge, whatever. It’s pretty clear from this that whatever they were after - and again, we don’t yet know what that is - was not related to anything within Mueller’s purview. So tying this in your head’s - and anyone else’s head - to the Russia investigation, Mueller or Trump’s soi-disant ‘red line’ is entirely fallacious and does a disservice to the process. It also likely tells us that there are now TWO ongoing investigations into Trump’s activities. The Russia investigation led by Mueller and whatever the hell the FBI thinks they have from Cohen and company. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/391 "2018-04-15T14:55:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > True. But he didn’t even say it. The reporter said it, and it wasn’t even clear when Trump said “yes”, which question he was answering, as there were two questions asked and only one used the term “red line”. And that answer he gave was a garbled mess. > > If I’m to believe that Trump has “long declared” something, there should be evidence of him actually “declaring” it several times over some number of months. Now, maybe that occurred and my Google search didn’t turn it up. If so, maybe someone can link to the instances being referred to. This has always been my understanding of this alleged “Trump red line”. Every time I hear it repeated in the news I wish someone would have the courage to correct it with context and tell everyone to knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/392 "2018-04-15T14:56:57Z")
Spot on, **Jonathan Chance** – and perhaps this is why Trump hasn’t gone ahead with firing Mueller or Rosenstein or Sessions yet – he’s aware, probably told by whatever lawyers he still has, that dumping them will not stop the Cohen investigation, indeed, will likely only make his position even more untenable. So he can flail and fulminate on Twitter all he wants, but actually doing anything about the special counsel at this point is out. I could, of course, be completely wrong about this. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/393 "2018-04-15T14:59:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This has always been my understanding of this alleged “Trump red line”. Every time I hear it repeated in the news I wish someone would have the courage to correct it with context and tell everyone to knock it off. It would be nice, but by now it’s baked into the narrative; not gonna happen. Too many words to explain the truth; much too dull compared to “red line!” and no one would pay any attention anyway. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/394 "2018-04-15T15:05:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > HRC … wouldn’t have pushed for a tax cut either. This implies the sort of thought process that truly baffles me. Most of the GOP is always eager for tax cuts since it fits their Starve The Beast agenda. Although they say the opposite in public, they want ever-mounting deficit and debt. Adults, on the other hand, understand that taxes are necessary and, although always unpopular, a tax hike might be better policy than a tax cut. It doesn’t take the political savvy or statesman-like skills of a Karl Rove or Rush Limbaugh to figure that tax cuts will be popular with American voters. (That’s true even when the tax cut is directed at corporations and the rich—Americans aren’t very smart.) And of course the Kochs and Wilks and Mercers—the people who really run America—support corporate tax cuts. (The Dems do not; that so many Americans say “Both parties are the same; may as well vote for the clown with funny-colored skin” just confirms how utterly stupid we all are.) If you offer a toddler the choice of sugar or spinach, the toddler will opt for sugar. Does that mean sugar is the better food for the toddler? One can admire Serena Williams’ backhand while rooting for the other player. Yitang Zhang’s progress toward the Twin Prime Conjecture? I couldn’t do that! But tax cuts?? Feeding sugar to babies?? When people seem to claim that the GOP tax cuts were somehow admirable or intelligent I just want to call my dope dealer: _Give me whatever he’s smoking!_ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/395 "2018-04-15T15:06:04Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > It would be nice, but by now it’s baked into the narrative; not gonna happen. Too many words to explain the truth; much too dull compared to “red line!” and no one would pay any attention anyway. It’s not often that I give credit to a Fox News reporter, but Shep Smith took the time to set the record straight on all the [Faux News bullshit about the Uranium 1 deal](http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/15/media/shepard-smith-fox-news-hillary-clinton-uranium-one/index.html). That took some courage and I’ve not heard a single fucking thing from that trumplicker Hannity about it since. It would be so much easier for AC to correct the Trump Red Line statement on CNN. He should. It’s disappointing that he has not to date. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/396 "2018-04-15T15:16:33Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Umm… ‘Eyes wide open’? > > Did his ‘public’, his ‘base’ know about his decades of dirt? Now, I think it’s probably true that many knew what a reprobate he is, and just don’t care. They identify with him. Even applaud him for being such an asshole. > > But how much did they know? Many of these people only get their news from FOX, if that. …which is why they’re not going to change their minds no matter what comes out of these investigations. What can change their minds is if they get the impression that Trump’s not such a tough guy, and what could really change their minds is if they realize that, actually, the federal government does impact their lives in ways they hadn’t imagined and it can royally rock their world to have the wrong people running it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/397 "2018-04-15T15:17:56Z")
Call it a red line, call it whatever you like. Trump has tried to delegitimize the investigation and the investigators at every turn, using whatever bullshit excuse he can come up with. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/398 "2018-04-15T15:19:06Z")
My pessimism may be a downer, but if it spurs Dopers out of complacency it has a purpose. Checking the prediction markets I see that the probability Trump will finish his 1st term was about 50% for several months, but rose in January and is now 66%. Trump is the most likely person to win the 2020 Presidential election. Second-most likely is roughly a tie (or so the Betfair prediction market shows) among Bernie Sanders, Mike Pence, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. One thing is absolutely certain: _If Donald J. Trump does run again in 2020,_ _ **he will, once again, win an overwhelming majority of the votes of white males.** _ ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/399 "2018-04-15T15:48:15Z")
I wholeheartedly agree with Davidson’s assessment of Trump’s business dealings and I agree that will be his downfall. I’ve said this ever since he rode down that golden escalator to talk about Mexican rapists. In fact, my response to my family whenever they ask me if I agree or disagree with something Trump said, is “It doesn’t matter what he says. The man is a criminal and a con artist. Now here is what I’ve been wondering lately. Now, I don’t think this is a likely scenario, I think it’s very unlikely. But not outside the realm of possibility. What if the investigation into the Trump Organization turns up something REALLY major, Bernie Madoff style major? Because I keep thinking about the parallels. Both men ran large high profile businesses that were tightly held inside their families. Granted, Madoff didn’t have the name recognition that Trump had with the general public but he was very well known inside financial circles. There are ( were?) very public facets to both businesses that gave them an air of legitimacy. Trump really does build buildings and own real estate. Madoff really did broker large legitimate stock trades. And the last parallel is both men are really kind of dumbasses. They both have that very special combination of cupidity and stupidity. And don’t kid yourself, most everyone close to the Madoff businesses knew his hedge fund didn’t work the way he said it worked. But they thought he was using the information he got from his brokerage business to engage in a little insider trading on behalf of a lot of worthwhile charities and a few close friends. They had no idea of the scope of the scam he was really pulling. Now I don’t think the Trump Organization would lend itself to facilitating a Pontiac scheme, ironically because Trump doesn’t have the reputation to make himself trustworthy enough to pull that off. But what if investigators uncovered a large organized money laundering ring sitting behind hiss legitimate business? Or something else that was serious in a “White Collar Crime of the Century” way? Would they need to impeach him before arresting him. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944/400 "2018-04-15T15:54:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s not often that I give credit to a Fox News reporter, but Shep Smith took the time to set the record straight on all the [Faux News bullshit about the Uranium 1 deal](http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/15/media/shepard-smith-fox-news-hillary-clinton-uranium-one/index.html). > > That took some courage and I’ve not heard a single fucking thing from that trumplicker Hannity about it since. > > It would be so much easier for AC to correct the Trump Red Line statement on CNN. He should. It’s disappointing that he has not to date. Shep is really the lone voice of sanity over at Fox. He’s also done similar segments about the Obama wiretapping allegations and the bogus Nunes/House Intelligence Committee report. He’s actually trying to be a real reporter even though he works for Fox. Unfortunately their viewership prefers Hannity over sanity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-trump-s-tipping-point/810944.md?page=21)