# Are we at war with Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716 "2017-07-07T19:50:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/21 "2017-07-08T21:21:43Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Any chance that an article written 18 months later than the NYT article might have a little more information? Naah, couldn’t be. > > Aha. Found it. [https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/RUS?fiscal\_year=2009&measure=Obligations](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/RUS?fiscal_year=2009&measure=Obligations) > > Every year since 2001 (as far back as the government appears to track it). Except for last year, it appears, which inexplicably shows a negative value, but it’s noted that the data for 2016 & 2017 are partial. And the last full year they have data on, 2015, is at the lowest level since 2001. No data before then, either, but I fully expect we gave aid to Russia after the fall of the USSR. More likely is that both news articles are true since the Post one deals with Trump allegations…which are invariably silly. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/22 "2017-07-08T21:29:39Z")
While I don’t think we are at the level of war with Russia, I think what we are embroiled in is a harbinger of what war is becoming and will look like in the future. ETA: It’s just not to the level of warfare yet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/23 "2017-07-08T21:38:56Z")
About the foreign aid again: The rationale for much of it was rewarding countries that helped to fight against terrorism, from Bushy onward. Seems pretty well bipartisan to me. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/24 "2017-07-08T21:38:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **TriPolar** : > > A Mildly Chilly War. Perhaps no more than a Nip in the Air War. It should be a war for the survival of freedom. That bad, really? I would hope that we’re in no worse than a Deep-Freeze War. Certainly no worse than DEFCON 4. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/25 "2017-07-08T21:53:04Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > About the foreign aid again: > > The rationale for much of it was rewarding countries that helped to fight against terrorism, from Bushy onward. Seems pretty well bipartisan to me. Fair enough…but my real point is we don’t usually give money to people we’re at war with. “Dey hucked urrr elecshun!!” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/26 "2017-07-09T00:40:12Z")
There are a couple of questions of timing there. While intimations of hacking appeared on Clapper’s radar in mid-2015, President Obama wasn’t briefed until mid-2016, and he couldn’t very well impose sanctions until he’d notified Putin (or at least the Russian government). By that time we were nearly at the end of the FY 2016 budget. And, given that we have little info about the 2016 aid budget and apparently none about 2017 yet, I’m not sure what the Russians are even getting anymore. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/27 "2017-07-09T00:54:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That bad, really? I would hope that we’re in no worse than a Deep-Freeze War. Certainly no worse than DEFCON 4. Deep-Freeze War is the minimum. It’s Russia, that’s barely below the average temperature there for this time of year. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/28 "2017-07-09T05:32:10Z")
We aren’t at war with Russia, the question is silly. Now… is Russia at war with us? That question isn’t so silly. I mean, what do you call it when you’re attacked, 15+ agencies who monitor this stuff say the attacks occurred, and the President says “eh, it doesn’t matter”? Doesn’t sound like we are going to “fight” back for another 4 years. But they’ll keep attacking us, as [they were found to done so again just this week.](http://www.businessinsider.com/officials-believe-russia-hacked-us-nuclear-power-sites-2017-7) So, no. We are not at war with Russia. Russia is at war with us. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/29 "2017-07-09T17:56:37Z")
The US and the Russians nee Soviets have been fucking with each other daily since at least 1945. As the tenor of the times and the available tech have changed, so has the nature and intensity of the action. It’s mostly under the table, but once in awhile something breaks the public consciousness. All of statecraft is about trying to induce particular behavior in the other guy. The inducements are by definition either carrots or sticks. In any scenario short of the very end stages of a total war there is always plenty of scope for applying both simultaneously. Hell, we ended WWII against Japan by offering the gigantic carrot of keeping the Emperor right alongside the giant stick of a threatened third atomic attack. The people upthread who are going on about “foreign aid to enemies” as some unthinkable \*non sequitur \*or as evidence of high treason are being simplistic and/or ignorant in the extreme. It’s just business as usual in the statecraft trade. Are the Russians in a particularly ambitious snarly mode now? Yes. Modern tech and modern Western society offer them some real advantages to applying their efforts to our detriment. Meantime we have lots of sanctions going in the other direction, their economy is nearing collapse (thanks in significant measure to us), and so are their demographics. Just considering the international situation and ignoring any home-grown US problems I know who I’m betting will be still going strong in 50 years. It ain’t Russia. As to Trump’s relationship w Putin … IMO it’s pretty straightforward. Russia is a kleptocracy ruled by an inner circle of insanely wealthy plutocrats. Many of whom came from the ranks of the secret police, but not all. Trump would love to become the Putin of the US, arriving at the same place - Kleptocratic Leader for Life - via a different route: tycoon, not secret policeman. And Trump would love to set up an inner circle of plutocrats running the whole show from their respective corporate HQs. Each paying tribute to the Supreme Leader. Trump doesn’t \*like \*Putin or \*work for \*Putin. He wants to \*be \*Putin. Putin of course would equally enjoy a US that was run that way. That’s an entity he & his pals could easily do business with. Government of, by, and for, a small coterie of oligarchs in both countries. So Putin is working to assist Trump in emulating Putin’s model. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/30 "2017-07-09T18:10:32Z")
Well, the [Chinese are buying half a trillion dollars of gas from Mother Russia,](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-03/16/content_28581640.htm), in addition to the [billions already invested in Russia](https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/16/putin-plans-one-belt-one-road-initiative-763456)so the economy won;t remain down for much longer. The world power situation has become 1\<2a+2b, however 1 \>2a and 1\>2b. With 1=US and 2a=China and 2b=Russia. Skillful diplomacy on the US’s part will be to ensure that it never becomes 2a + 2b on any substantial issue. Maybe you guys should dig up Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/31 "2017-07-09T18:58:59Z")
Yeah. There’s no such thing as a stable trichotomy. The US has been able to have a good run from 1945 through recently without needing to be especially skillful. At times they were especially skilful and it really paid off. At other times less so. We’re entering /already enetered?) an era where it’ll take maximum skill to maintain a decent outcome. At a time when we seem to be focusing on displaying zero or even negative skill. Gonna be interesting times. In more than one Chinese sense. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/32 "2017-07-09T19:16:18Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well, the [Chinese are buying half a trillion dollars of gas from Mother Russia,](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-03/16/content_28581640.htm), in addition to the [billions already invested in Russia](https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/16/putin-plans-one-belt-one-road-initiative-763456)so the economy won;t remain down for much longer. > > The world power situation has become 1\<2a+2b, however 1 \>2a and 1\>2b. > > With 1=US and 2a=China and 2b=Russia. > > Skillful diplomacy on the US’s part will be to ensure that it never becomes 2a + 2b on any substantial issue. Maybe you guys should dig up Nixon. The first part of your statement is correct: Russia isn’t really ‘down’ any longer, in the sense of the recession. They came out of recession in the last quarter of last year (according to the World Bank) and the low oil prices have in some ways been good for them, i.e. helping them diversify their economy: they’re now a major agricultural exporter, for example. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-06/russia-upends-world-wheat-market-with-record-harvest-exports](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-06/russia-upends-world-wheat-market-with-record-harvest-exports) I disagree with the second part though: the United States is still way, way more powerful as a military force than even Russia and China put together, and is slightly ahead in terms of GDP as well. The " 1 \< 2a + 2b" might have been true during the Cold War, but it’s not true today. America is immeasurably ahead of any possible rival. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/33 "2017-07-09T19:43:03Z")
2b, or not 2b, that is the question. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716/34 "2017-07-09T19:46:49Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well, the [Chinese are buying half a trillion dollars of gas from Mother Russia,](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-03/16/content_28581640.htm), in addition to the [billions already invested in Russia](https://www.rbth.com/international/2017/05/16/putin-plans-one-belt-one-road-initiative-763456)so the economy won;t remain down for much longer. Well. These things are positives for Russia without doubt. But to say they will save the Russian economy is an exaggeration. Seems the gas is over a 30-year period. And as the second link shows, trade between China and Russia is minute, with a lot of mutual suspicion. A[s a trading partner, Russia is not one of Chinas top ten. Not like countries like the Netherlands, or Malaysia, or the city-state of Singapore, all of which are bigger trading partners.](http://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/) > [@AK84](#): > > The world power situation has become 1\<2a+2b, however 1 \>2a and 1\>2b. > > With 1=US and 2a=China and 2b=Russia. > > Skillful diplomacy on the US’s part will be to ensure that it never becomes 2a + 2b on any substantial issue. Maybe you guys should dig up Nixon. In some areas. In others, not so much. The thing is, Russia only counts in some limited areas. A big legacy military inherited from the Soviet glory days with questionable maintenance. A lot of natural resources, the use of which is hampered by one of the worlds most corrupt systems and great suspicion of foreign actors. Before the oil price crash, Russias economy was almost exactly the size of Italys. Its gone down a lot since then. There is a limit to how many areas they can be relevant in with that weak fundamentals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war-with-russia/790716.md?page=1)