# Are we at war?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 9, 2002, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620 "2002-09-09T06:57:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/1 "2002-09-09T06:57:23Z")
We say we’re at war, but is there a formal process that was followed? IIRC, the constitution defines how we can declare war on a foreign power, but does it cover war against amorphous organizations? Does it require a specific enemy or state or are we at war in the way we’re at war against drugs?
Thanks,
PC
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### Author:  [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/2 "2002-09-09T07:49:57Z")
Irregardless of any official declaration, announcement or protocol we are at war because war has been declared on **us**.
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### Author:  [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/3 "2002-09-09T09:23:52Z")
No, we’re not really at war. “War on ” is a great way to rally people to a usually bullshit cause. Of course, terror is a real threat, but the way we persue it in the name of the war on terror may well turn out to be a bullshit cause.
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### Author:  [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/4 "2002-09-09T09:27:59Z")
I think that **PC’s** point would be can a non-governmental body/organisation declare war on the US (or anybody)? As we’ve seen, it’s an important distinction regarding POWs etc…
I suspect that they can’t. Otherwise a loony milita etc. can declare war and receive some protection under the Geneva convention.
I don’t know if the US even declared war on Afghanistan - I strongly suspect not.
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### Author:  [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/5 "2002-09-09T09:29:34Z")
The no-preview-blues again 🙂 .
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/6 "2002-09-09T11:24:14Z")
1 We are at war since we’ve been attacked - no congress vote is needed
2 the Congress has voted constitutionally that we are at war and has given the Pres sole discression as to who to attack (the constitution does not go into any detail as to what a D.o.W must/must not be.
3 War was declared on a group in the past (Barbary pirates) so there is precedent.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/7 "2002-09-09T11:29:48Z")
The answer is “[not officially](http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj00/fal00/castillo.htm)”.
P.S. “Irregardless” - not a real word.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/8 "2002-09-09T11:57:52Z")
k2dave:
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> 1 We are at war since we’ve been attacked - no congress vote is needed
Incorrect. See both the US Constitution and the declaration of war against Japan in 1941.
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> 2 the Congress has voted constitutionally that we are at war and has given the Pres sole discression as to who to attack
Incorrect. The US Congress has authorized the use of military force. There has been no declaration of war in the current crisis.
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> (the constitution does not go into any detail as to what a D.o.W must/must not be.
Incorrect. The US Constitution specifically limits the power to declare war to the Congress. The President cannot declare war. The President may request that Congress do so.
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> 3 War was declared on a group in the past (Barbary pirates) so there is precedent.
Those pirates were agents of the coastal states which is why the US, following the lead of other nations, was able to negotiate treaty payments with those states to keep the Barbary Pirates from harassing US shipping. Tripoli and Algiers broke the treaties and brought the war on themselves by doing so. {I got this info from Microsoft Encarta.}
jjimm:
From Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary (bolding mine):
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> Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
> Pronunciation: "ir-i-'gärd-l&s
> Function: adverb
> Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
> Date: circa 1912
> nonstandard : REGARDLESS
> usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” **There is such a word, however.** It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.
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### Author:  [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/9 "2002-09-09T12:08:21Z")
Thank you, **Monty** , you saved me from lots of coding errors.
For a short lesson (with coding errors), please see [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2406555&#post2406555).
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### Author:  [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/10 "2002-09-09T12:19:02Z")
Thank’s everyone. I periodically hear various statements about it and, of course, there’s all those legality questions about what we do with our “POWs” and I was wondering where we stood.
PC
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/11 "2002-09-09T13:25:35Z")
**Monty** There was no need to declare war on Japan - it was a formality when we are attacked we are at war.
The Constitution does not define what a formal D.o.W must be - I defy you to find it. What does the use of military force mean to you?
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> Incorrect. The US Constitution specifically limits the power to declare war to the Congress. The President cannot declare war. The President may request that Congress do so.
.You statement is sidestepping the issue and in no way counters my statement.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/12 "2002-09-09T13:33:59Z")
Just to add with WW2 Japan - Congress would look pretty stupid if they didn’t. This is part of what I believe happened/is happining now - congress had to delcare war on someone after 9-11-01 but now they are crying foul because they want the political boost that comes with supporting a war.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/13 "2002-09-09T13:40:34Z")
**k2dave** , since last year’s attacks were by a non-state organization, surely this makes the _de facto_ war status difficult to declare: was the US state ‘at war’ with McVeigh?
P.S. I stand corrected re. “irregardless” (though MW does echo my feeling that it’s a sucky word).
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/14 "2002-09-09T14:19:10Z")
> [@](#):
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> k2dave, since last year’s attacks were by a non-state organization, surely this makes the de facto war status difficult to declare: was the US state ‘at war’ with McVeigh?
You make a good point but it just leaves the issue open for interpertation not a conclusion.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/15 "2002-09-09T14:52:06Z")
It’s ironic that the same people who say this is a real war are the ones who deny the prisoners the status of POWs.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/16 "2002-09-09T15:21:16Z")
k2dave: Let me address that mal…er, statement of yours.
The fact that Japan attacked the United States meant that Japan had gone to war against the United States. You might recall (or maybe not, given your, ah, interesting take on events) that Japan had instructed their ambassador to deliver a declaration of war.
My posting does not sidestep jack.
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### Author:  [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)
#### Post date: [September 9, 2002, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/17 "2002-09-09T18:21:08Z")
A U.S. Declaration of War can only be made by the Congress of the United States.
A Declaration of War changes the Powers granted to the President of the United States, greatly increasing them. The President can suspend portions of the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and Federal Laws. [The Sedition Act of 1918.](http://azimuth.harcourtcollege.com/history/ayers/chapter22/22.2.sedition.html) Internment of [Japanese-American citizens](http://www.lib.utah.edu/spc/photo/9066/9066.htm) in WWII. Federal takeover of tranportation and core industries. Price fixing.
Article I, Section 9 of the [U.S. Constitution](http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html) permits the federal government to suspend the writ of habeas corpus
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> when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.
This permits the president to arrest and detain anyone without trial for indefinite periods.
Can you see why Congress is generally reluctant to officially Declare War?
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### Author:  [@PosterChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PosterChild)
#### Post date: [September 10, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-at-war/127620/18 "2002-09-10T22:26:23Z")
It’s been very informative. I appreciate **k2dave** ’s subjective view of war as well as the legal/political meaning. I thought I remembered stuff about presidential powers and laws being ‘adjusted’ during a war as opposed to a military action (which I thought was limited to something like 6 months (weeks?) without congresional approval). So Section 8 of article I (see **UncleBill** ’s link) says
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> The Congress shall have power to … provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; … To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water
Maybe that’s why congress passed that ‘patriot’ bill that gave the executive branch all those expanded powers instead of declaring war.
PC