# Are we being fair to Hitler? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2010, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935 "2010-07-25T11:21:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/61 "2010-07-27T16:01:20Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Well, what can you expect from a couple of Krauts? 😛 So you’re willing to give him credit for both the Volkswagen, which was conceived under Hitler but not built, and the Autobahn, where Hitler’s government took over other existing plans? And yeah, Hitler increased industrial production. There was a Depression. He increased spending to put people back to work. That’s different than “dragging Germany into the industrial age”. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/62 "2010-07-27T17:06:47Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > So you’re willing to give him credit for both the Volkswagen, which was conceived under Hitler but not built But it was built under him. He personally rode in one. He didn’t just conceive of some vague notion of a people’s car, he was personally involved with its design and production. He drew plans for it by hand. It was his baby. What you’re saying is that Heath Ledger should get no credit for the Joker, because that film was released after he died. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/63 "2010-07-27T17:40:34Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Centuries from now, people will be yukking it up watching old reruns of _Hogan’s Heroes_ while yearning for those simpler times with those zany Nazis. Centuries from now, people will be talking about how the “Un” Un-Nazied the world from Charlie Chaplin and his evil army of dinosaur riding Nazi regime. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/64 "2010-07-27T17:46:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Centuries from now, people will be talking about how the “Un” Un-Nazied the world from Charlie Chaplin and his evil army of dinosaur riding Nazi regime. Led by [Diana, Warrior Princess](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana:_Warrior_Princess), naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/65 "2010-07-27T18:58:10Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > But it was built under him. He personally rode in one. He didn’t just conceive of some vague notion of a people’s car, he was personally involved with its design and production. He drew plans for it by hand. It was his baby. > What you’re saying is that Heath Ledger should get no credit for the Joker, because that film was released after he died. But the Volkswagen was never built or sold. A few “demonstration models” were built, and then the entire plant was turned over to war production. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/66 "2010-07-27T19:39:05Z")
Not only that, german workers put money down for Volkswagens before they started production. Then Hitler started the war, and no cars were ever produced, and all those down payments were used to fund the war. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/67 "2010-07-27T22:04:05Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Oliver Stone has recently weighed in on this a bit: > > [http://newsbusters.org/blogs/alana-goodman/2010/07/25/oliver-stone-jewish-dominated-media-prevents-hitler-being-portrayed-c#ixzz=](http://newsbusters.org/blogs/alana-goodman/2010/07/25/oliver-stone-jewish-dominated-media-prevents-hitler-being-portrayed-c#ixzz=) And quickly weighed out again the next day, issuing an apology for his statements about Hitler, the Holocaust and the ‘Jewish-dominated’ US media. [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1298023/Oliver-Stone-apologises-claim-Hitler-scapegoat.html](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1298023/Oliver-Stone-apologises-claim-Hitler-scapegoat.html) Guy hasn’t even got the courage of his own idiotic convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/68 "2010-07-28T02:39:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > > > Well, what can you expect from a couple of Krauts? 😛 > > So you’re willing to give him credit for both the Volkswagen, which was conceived under Hitler but not built, and the Autobahn, where Hitler’s government took over other existing plans? > > And yeah, Hitler increased industrial production. There was a Depression. He increased spending to put people back to work. That’s different than “dragging Germany into the industrial age”. My actual point was that was how Germans thought long after the war. But I do think there is some truth to it, especially the Volkswagen, which may not have existed had Hitler not commissioned it regardless of when actual mass production began. and in your previous post you did say construction of the autobahns began under the Weimar Republic, and that’s not true. I’m not defending Hitler here. Again, just mentioning that was what German non-Nazis I knew told me personally long after the war, and they claimed it was the general regard among their country folk regardless of the degree of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/69 "2010-07-28T03:01:19Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > and in your previous post you did say construction of the autobahns began under the Weimar Republic, and that’s not true. The first section of the autobahn, from Bonn-Cologne, was begun in 1929, and finished in 1932. Hitler became chancellor in 1933. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/70 "2010-07-28T03:04:27Z")
I surrender! Stick me in a gas chamber. Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/71 "2010-07-28T03:25:11Z")
Who cares about the Volkswagon anyway? They would have just built some other car. A car is a car. It’s not like he invented the car and they wouldn’t have had any otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/72 "2010-07-28T03:57:31Z")
Some of this is probably post war collective rationalisation about why he was supported before it all get messy - he fixed the country, etc etc. They talk up or even make up good things so as to feel less guilty about the bad things they ignored, said nothing about or even supported. Otara ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/73 "2010-07-28T05:25:16Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > **Are we being fair to Hitler?** Such a big fuss over one little mistake! What if everybody held a grudge?! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/74 "2010-07-28T07:06:53Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Who cares about the Volkswagon anyway? They would have just built some other car. A car is a car. It’s not like he invented the car and they wouldn’t have had any otherwise. It’s not the car itself, it’s the principle behind it. The Volkswagen was designed to be sturdy to use/easy to fix, as well as cheap to make. IOW, a cheap car for the working masses. AFAIK, as a concept, that’s a first in the West - back then, cars were the dominion of the rich, while the poor got around on bicycles. That was how things were, that was the estabilshed social order. I know today it doesn’t seem like such a big thing, when everyone and his dog has a car. 80 years ago, it was. The times, they have achanged. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/75 "2010-07-28T07:26:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s not the car itself, it’s the principle behind it. The Volkswagen was designed to be sturdy to use/easy to fix, as well as cheap to make. IOW, a cheap car for the working masses. AFAIK, as a concept, that’s a first in the West - back then, cars were the dominion of the rich, while the poor got around on bicycles. That was how things were, that was the estabilshed social order. But that concept predated Hitler. The goal of building an affordable car for working people was shared by a lot of car companies prior to the KdF-Wagen. Henry Ford said about his Model T is 1909: > [@](#): > > I will build a car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one—and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God’s great open spaces. In France, there was the 1919 Citroen Type A, which Citroen called “Europe’s first mass production car”, and the 1928 Rosengart LR2 and LR4. In Germany, there was the 1924 Opel Laubfrosch, in the UK, the 1922 Austin 7, in Italy, the 1936 Fiat Topolino, and in Czechoslovakia, the 1936 Tatra T97. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/76 "2010-07-28T07:30:28Z")
In fact, Porsche stole the design for the Tatra T97 for the KdF-Wagen. The design of the two cars is identical. ---
**Author:** ![bullrun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@bullrun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bullrun)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/77 "2010-07-28T20:26:47Z")
Adolf was just a little moody…that’s all. IF he had some paxil or zanex or something similar…he would have been just another vegetarian politician. (sarcasm) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/78 "2010-07-28T20:49:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In fact, Porsche stole the design for the Tatra T97 for the KdF-Wagen. The design of the two cars is identical. :dubious: I’d like to see some support for this. I read a book about the history of the Volkswagen, and granted that was a few years back, but I don’t remember anything like this. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/79 "2010-07-28T21:08:11Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > > > In fact, Porsche stole the design for the Tatra T97 for the KdF-Wagen. The design of the two cars is identical. > > :dubious: I’d like to see some support for this. I read a book about the history of the Volkswagen, and granted that was a few years back, but I don’t remember anything like this. There’s this, from this Tatra website: [http://www.tatra.demon.nl/cars\_history\_T97.htm](http://www.tatra.demon.nl/cars_history_T97.htm) > [@](#): > > THE VOLKSWAGEN CONNECTION > It’s not difficult to spot the close resemblance between the T97 and the Volkswagen Beetle. That’s because their history and development have overlapped. For several years during the 1930s - whilst Tatra was working on the construction of the 1931 and 1933 rear-engined aerodynamic prototypes and Porsche was developing the Volkswagen (VW) KdF-Wagen - Hans Ledwinka and Ferdinand Porsche regularly met to discuss their automotive work and designs. As Porsche later admitted in his own words he occasionally ‘looked over the shoulder’ of his contemporary. > > When the T97 was introduced in 1936 it was perhaps the most advanced small car in the world. But Porsche was still working on the development of the VW KdF-Wagen under an enormous time pressure from Adolf Hitler, who wanted to use the car for his promotion purposes. Hitler however considered the T97 to be too similar to his KdF-Wagen which was to be produced at the new Volkswagen factory in Wolfsburg, Germany, even though the T97 was listed at more then five and a half times the KdF-Wagen’s target selling price. In 1939 Hitler ordered to remove the T97 and the popular T57 from the Berlin Autosalon because of their close resemblance to the KdF-Wagen which was introduced at the 1939 Autosalon. > > In the late 1930s it became clear that VW had used several patents of the Tatra factory. It’s likely Porsche used these patents because of the enourmous presure from Hitler to develop the KdF-Wagen in a short time and on a tight budget. Just before the outbrake of WWII Tatra had ten legal claims against VW for infringement of patents. Although Porsche was about to make a settlement with Tatra, Hitler stopped him and told Porsche he would “solve this problem”. Shortly after he invaded Czechoslovakia and gained control over the Tatra factory. Hitler immediately stopped the production of the T97 after only 508 cars were built. The T97’s big brother, the V8-powered T87, did remain in production during the first years of the war. The T87 was considered by German high command as the ultimate car for the new German Autobahns and was a real favourite amongst German officers. > > After the war the KdF-Wagen went on to international stardom as the VW Beetle selling millions and millions of cars, while Tatra found itself stranded behind the iron curtain under a new Communist government who told Tatra what they could and couldn’t produce and export. The lawsuit case of the patents was re-opened after the war and dragged on for years, ending in 1961 when VW eventually made a settlement paying Tatra a mere DM 3,000,000.-. Ledwinka never received any money himself and died in relative obscurity in 1967. Porsche later admitted that during the construction of the KdF-Wagen in the 1930s he “occasionally looked over the shoulder of Ledwinka”. I can try to find more info. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935/80 "2010-07-28T21:55:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > What was so different with what Hitler did from what most of the European nations and the US either was doing or was attempting to do. Hitler did not invent the aggressive war method of expanding territory. > > Well, first of all, most of Europe was not fighting an aggressive war or expanding territory. Much of Europe was still reeling from the effects of The War to End All Wars (AKA WW I). > > Hitler may not have invented war (is there an non-aggressive war?) but his war killed something like 50 million people, involved most of the world and destroyed most of Europe. Did you have another war in mind that comes close to that scale? WWI obviously. When you say scale I assume you mean as in something like ”percentage of population of warring nations involved killed”. I’m not a war buff but I would guess that the 30 year war had simmilar casualty rates. The Russian revolution or Taiping maybe? But yes, it was a big one. But it’s not mainly the war he’s being judged for, it’s the genocide. > [@msmith537](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The main differences that I can find is the holocaust, and that’s not all that special either. How did it differ from what other nations had done or were doing? > > Um… **because other nations weren’t committing genocide and certainly not on that scale**? And it’s not as if we give Mao, Pol Pot or Stalin a pass either. My opinion is that lots of nations were committing genocide, and some on that scale. And among the worst offenders are ‘good’ and ‘innocent’ nations such as the UK, Spain, Belgium and the USA. My argument is that we in the west have a severly edited view of history, with us as the good guys and Hitler as a monster. But that in reality, we’ve all been behaving like monsters and the way we look at Hitler is a way of escaping responsibility ourselves. > [@msmith537](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. Hitler had the poor taste of doing it in Europe rather than in Asia, Africa or the Americas. > > > > 2. The people exterminated were much whiter than usual. > > Your racially insensitive comments aside, there tends to be a natural bias for all civilizations to view themselves as the most civilized. A European war and genocide tends to have a bit more immediacy to us than one in Asia or Africa. My comments are not racially insensitive, they’re pointing out the racism that was prevalent then, and the racism that is prevalent now. That we still on many levels think that hitler killing millions of white people is worse than us killing brown people. Pointing out racism isn’t racially insensitive. It might be socially insensitive, but also a moral obligation. > [@msmith537](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. He incorporated modern industrial methods, so it was the most modernized genocide at the time. > > This is a big part of it. Some genocides are a byproduct of bad or misguided economic or political policies or a result of long ongoing fueds between pre-industrialized tribes. The meticulous planning and implementation of the holocaust using modern industrial methods makes it that much more premeditated and evil. I don’t think gassing someone is more evil than intentionally spreading diseases, chopping people into bits or using firing squads. The idea that some genocides are more ”evil” than others and therefore deserves to be judged differently to this extent seems irrational. I don’t think there’s a humane way to commit genocide and I’m pretty sure none of the ones committed have been humane. > [@msmith537](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > It wasn’t the largest genocide in history, it wasn’t even a successful genocide (jews, homosexuals and communists are still around), and it definitely wasn’t the last genocide. So why is he being singled out? > > Genocides aren’t rated by their success at eradicating a particular group. And it was still pretty effective in some countries. > > How many genocides can you name where over 12 million people were killed (not counting 20 million Russians)? I can only think of a few. Mao and Stalin killed **more** than Hitler. So if it wasn’t the most successful in regards to eradicating groups and it wasn’t the most successful in amount of people killed… why is it regarded as the worst? My opinion: Because the people were white and it happened in Europe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-fair-to-hitler/547935.md?page=5)