# Are we being lied to about the value of STEM degrees? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291 "2017-12-26T01:03:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/21 "2017-12-26T18:02:46Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I’m about to end this thread: > > […] > But who cares about fastest growing if the number of jobs goes from 1000 to 2000? Yeah, the number of jobs doubled but that still isn’t many jobs. > > Here’s BLS list of top 20 most new jobs: > 3 of the top 5 paying most new jobs start with a STEM education. The highest paying is software developers. > > This country needs more STEM in its workforce. The trick is you need to get the basic information to make the right choices in getting into STEM work. > > I agree with the point that you need to get an internship before you leave college. > > The OP is baseless. This thread is done. One supposed advantage of a STEM education is that it confers an ability analyze the question at hand and the available data, from which one can draw a reasonable conclusion. This is lacking in the quoted post. The quote references a link that was omitted. This may be it: [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/most-new-jobs.htm) “Most new jobs: 20 occupations with the highest projected numeric change in employment.” The thread is about STEM degrees. Of the 20 occupations with the greatest projected growth (by number), the top five paying are: [ol] [li]Software developers, applications ($100k)[/li][li]General and operations managers ($99k)[/li][li]Registered nurses ($68k)[/li][li]Accountants and auditors ($68k)[/li][li]Market research analysts and marketing specialists ($64k)[/li][/ol] Just about everything after that has a median pay \<$40k. As for these top five, software development is certainly a STEM field but doesn’t require a STEM degree. General and operations managers obviously don’t need one. Nursing might be considered STEM, although apparently people argue about this (I just searched for ‘is nursing STEM’). Accountants use high school math. Market research analysts run the gamut, so let’s count it. After that it’s things like home aids and truck drivers. Not exactly strong evidence for high value or a shortage. There may be specific subfields with shortages and the corresponding pay one would expect for high demand and low supply. But that tells us nothing about STEM in general, or how well you can expect to do with an undergrad-only degree in, say, chemistry. Although I generally support more education and better science literacy purely to improve my own quality of life. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/22 "2017-12-26T19:52:58Z")
**Ruken** , the OP specifically questioned the shortage of STEM graduates. There is, it’s reflected in the projections for positions available, particularly in the software industry, but also in STEM-oriented health care professions. For software, there’s also the relatively low unemployment rate and relatively high number of people with a software-related degree working within their major. Given a large number of positions projected to be available in software development, its high salary, and its high growth rate, it’s easy to see the tremendous value in the field especially considering the cost of entry is a bachelor’s degree. The trajectory of software development, by itself, is enough to exhibit concern over the lack of STEM graduates. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/23 "2017-12-26T21:15:59Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Becoming a scientist in biological/medical sciences requires a PhD which takes about 7 years (often more). And a period of “training” known as a postdoc that is an additional 4-10 years. Then you have a very small chance to become a tenured scientist and finally make a living wage. But, there are WAY more postdocs than tenured scientist positions, so chances are that you are shit out of luck and have to consider an “alternative” career in science, which is an odd term for the careers that the majority of people end up in. The time to degree and the time of postdoc has increased dramatically in recent decades, because there are simply no positions for these people, so they end up in career holding patterns until they finally give up (or less likely, get a job). > > I’m not bitter, because I’ve been one of the very, very lucky ones. But, of the people I went to graduate school with, only two of us are “scientists” (I’m in industry, not academia.) > > There are WAY too many young scientists due to an upside down incentive structure that rewards having as many low cost graduate students and postdocs as possible, without any concern for their future. I always considered my friends with PhDs in chemistry or biology who worked in industry every bit as much a scientist as those who worked in academia. It is easier to give up on doing anything innovative in industry, true, since you get paid and don’t have to publish or do grant proposals, but it is not necessary. You shouldn’t be so hard on yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/24 "2017-12-26T21:20:23Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Looking at those medium incomes I’d say that one doesn’t get a STEM degree if they want to get rich … > > I’m a little surprised by the lack of construction trades listed, perhaps the desperate shortages are a local issue … one could skip college and high school and make that kind of money … better to have the eight years experience than any formal education … the only downside is that it’s hard work, but that’s what drives wages up, so few people today are willing to bust ass for a paycheck … If you want to get rich you become surgeon or go into finance. But I was in computer science for 35 years and did pretty good for myself. Construction is great in a boom - when the next recession shows up the jobs vanish fast. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/25 "2017-12-26T21:23:39Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > An H1B visa will cost the hiring company anywhere between $3-7,000. If they could hire qualified Americans why would they pay the additional cash to sponsor a foreign applicant? There’s a demand that isn’t being met by American workers. (This isn’t to say your thesis is faulty. Maybe STEM degrees are over hyped. I know welders can make a whole hell of a lot of money with barely a high school degree.) I guess you forgot about Disney (among others) who fire whole groups of IT workers in favor of H1B holders. And force the IT workers to train the new people. The problem is not primarily hiring one or two H1B holders - it is hiring scads of them through Indian owned outsourcing companies who grab most of the visas. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/26 "2017-12-26T21:29:56Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > This one is a critical aspect of the apparent disjoint regarding the STEM degrees and the job market. > > As inferred in other posts it has to do with the tendency to look upon Higher Ed as “preparation for _ **A** _ ‘good’ job” so there’s the expectation that you’ll be matched exactly to the work you trained for. University as a Vo-Tech job training on steroids, only with added calculus, Western Civ and foreign language requirements.\* As was mentioned above, too often policymakers complain that the colleges are not delivering people trained to start working today on what the economy needs right now, when the technology evolves faster than the 6 year cycle between when the kid starts considering colleges and when she graduates.\*\* > > \*And in the case of the USA, with a cost of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands dollars, compounding the urgency to see a “return on investment” (and for many of the graduates, to pay back the loan debt). > > \*\* This also has to do with the unrealistic expectation I so often see that youth should be able to track themselves or be tracked by evaluators in the direction of “their life career” before they are even old enough to sign a binding contract. During the bubble lots of students did the “right thing” by switching to CS majors to meet the shortage. And lots of them got screwed when the bottom fell out. So not only are they expected to track technical trends, they should also forecast the economy. Pretty tall order. Big companies used to have education centers to bring new hires up to speed on new technology while also letting experienced workers learn new technology. That’s mostly gone. The building next to the one where I used to work used to a an education center - now it is a customer visitor center. If you want to learn new things, go to conferences (oops, strongly discouraged) or learn it in your copious free time. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/27 "2017-12-26T22:08:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I find it far, far more disturbing how girls are being forced away from STEM. It’s more subtle than the encouragement, maybe, but it’s much more widespread. If STEM really were being forced on girls, at a level greater than just encouraging those who are interested, then we would see more women than men in STEM. Spoiler alert, we don’t. I’m not talking about college or even high school aged girls. I’m talking about grade-schoolers. That’s what seems to be going on in my area, anyway. They’re basically telling those girls that something is wrong with them if they don’t want a STEM career. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/28 "2017-12-26T22:11:26Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > However, if you don’t enjoy STEM, then it can be a waste of money. THIS. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/29 "2017-12-26T22:32:42Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I also find it disturbing the way STEM is being forced on girls. This is not the same as encouraging girls who are interested in those fields. I find it disturbing the way everybody is being forced toward STEM. Or as I like to call it, FUSS (screw you, Social Studies). It contributes to the idea that school is about driving people toward high-paying careers, that equality is about driving girls toward high-paying careers, the idea that STEM itself is about high-paying careers, the idea that STEM is the only high-paying career, that the end goal of everything is a high paying career. 20 years from now we’ll end up with a bunch of people hating themselves for going into software development, and there won’t be enough child-care professionals to watch their kids, marriage counselors to save their imploding marriage, elder-care professionals to help with aging parents, or psychologists to work out any of that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/30 "2017-12-26T22:55:39Z")
Maybe the focus should instead be on making math and science classes part of the general education requirements in colleges. Yes, yes, I know that they already are… but at the school I went to, non-science majors could get their science requirement out of the way with a course that was literally at the third-grade level (and yes, I know what “literally” means). And maybe then some kid who originally intended to study history ends up changing their mind and going into physics… but even if they don’t, they’ll still be a historian with some basic physics under their belt. Certainly nobody questions when it goes the other way, like a friend of mine who got his bachelor’s in CS, and is good at it, and has mostly made his livelihood in computer-related work… but who now considers history to be his vocation. ---
**Author:** ![jj\_mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac8455/32.png) [@jj\_mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jj_mad)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/31 "2017-12-26T23:16:22Z")
How about: are we being lied to about the practical value of a college education? ---
**Author:** ![BlueMerle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@BlueMerle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueMerle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/32 "2017-12-27T01:27:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Maybe the focus should instead be on making math and science classes part of the general education requirements in colleges. Yes, yes, I know that they already are… but at the school I went to, non-science majors could get their science requirement out of the way with a course that was literally at the third-grade level (and yes, I know what “literally” means). And maybe then some kid who originally intended to study history ends up changing their mind and going into physics… but even if they don’t, they’ll still be a historian with some basic physics under their belt. Certainly nobody questions when it goes the other way, like a friend of mine who got his bachelor’s in CS, and is good at it, and has mostly made his livelihood in computer-related work… but who now considers history to be his vocation. I agree completely with this. There should be more stringent science and math requirements for non-STEM majors. That said, I also recognize that the overwhelming majority of them struggle to understand the difference between mass and weight. Someone with a passion for Art History isn’t going to be slightly interested in Schrodinger’s cat or the implications therein. You can lead a horse to water… ---
**Author:** ![BlueMerle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@BlueMerle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlueMerle)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/33 "2017-12-27T01:29:07Z")
> [@jj\_mad](#): > > How about: are we being lied to about the practical value of a college education? And now we get to the crux of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/34 "2017-12-27T03:06:53Z")
> [@jj\_mad](#): > > How about: are we being lied to about the practical value of a college education? Not really, we’re allowing ourselves to be lied to. We like being lied to. The truth is boring. The vast majority of us are workaday peasants, nothing more, nothing less. Try as we might, our lot is more or less the same, work ourselves to the bone striving to be something better than the common riff raff. Today’s soup du jour is STEM education, yesterday’s was the gold rush - “Go West young man!!” “Plastics!!!” Tomorrow it’ll probably be something even more rediculous like everyone will save up for some sort of cranial implant that employers are raving about, there will be debates about what kind of implant to get, people will be judged upon what kind of implant they have. Their morals will be questioned, a movement to have them all sterilized will take hold, but the bill will die in committee. People won’t even associate with people who don’t have the right implant - very gauche. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/35 "2017-12-27T17:42:12Z")
> [@jj\_mad](#): > > How about: are we being lied to about the practical value of a college education? How about “this economy is shit and no one is getting paid what they’re worth”? As a biologist, I do my best to make sure anyone who will listen has a realistic idea of how bad the job market is right now. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/36 "2017-12-27T18:05:28Z")
Perhaps some of the pro-STEM stuff is in reaction to the way it used to be, where not knowing literature made you a savage (true enough) but not being able to add two numbers or know the difference between a light year and a leap year was considered cute. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/37 "2017-12-27T18:08:26Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > How about “this economy is shit and no one is getting paid what they’re worth”? > > As a biologist, I do my best to make sure anyone who will listen has a realistic idea of how bad the job market is right now. Really? What type? In Silicon Valley bioengineering is a growing field. I know engineering professors who are moving to bioengineering because that is where the grants are these days. I suppose if you are in the wrong specialty or not very good at it the job market would look bad. But that is always true. Perhaps we should worry about not only enjoying STEM but being competent at it. Whether or not we need new programmers, we don’t need new bad programmers. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/38 "2017-12-27T18:12:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Really? What type? In Silicon Valley bioengineering is a growing field. I know engineering professors who are moving to bioengineering because that is where the grants are these days. He said “biologist”, not “bioengineer”. As you mentioned, being in the “wrong” specialty makes a heap of difference. Even if you’re quite good at it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/39 "2017-12-27T18:20:48Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > He said “biologist”, not “bioengineer”. As you mentioned, being in the “wrong” specialty makes a heap of difference. Even if you’re quite good at it. But a person with a BS in Biology can easily transition into bioengineering in grad school. Probably more easily than an engineer can go the other way. Biology related fields are booming, so I find it odd for someone to say it is hard to get a job with the right kind of degree. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291/40 "2017-12-27T19:09:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But a person with a BS in Biology can easily transition into bioengineering in grad school. Probably more easily than an engineer can go the other way. Biology related fields are booming, so I find it odd for someone to say it is hard to get a job with the right kind of degree. When was the last time you looked for and started a new job, if you don’t mind me asking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-being-lied-to-about-the-value-of-stem-degrees/805291.md?page=3)