# Are We Fallen Angels? again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004 "2011-03-01T01:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/21 "2011-03-01T03:07:39Z")
In the Diablo series humanity wasn’t created by god at all, but was instead an accident born from the affair between a demon and angel, which is why neither heaven or hell likes us very much. I think that could explain some things. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/22 "2011-03-01T03:25:17Z")
If the Bible did not directly address the origin of humanity, it would be reasonable to look “between the lines” for the explanation. But given that it does address the origins of humanity, and that the “on the line” explanation conflicts with the “between the lines” one, it seems backwards to prefer the indirect interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/23 "2011-03-01T03:42:17Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > In the Diablo series humanity wasn’t created by god at all, but was instead an accident born from the affair between a demon and angel, which is why neither heaven or hell likes us very much. I think that could explain some things. The OP kind of reminds me of Steven Brust’s _[To Reign In Hell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Reign_in_Hell)_, where humans are the fourth and least powerful generation of angels. Not quite fallen angels as such, but created (along with Earth) during the climax of the war between Yahweh and Satan. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/24 "2011-03-01T03:53:24Z")
Of course, the notion of Satan rebelling against God, and of a war between fallen angels and God, is found nowhere in the Bible. As has been said, you don’t have to read between the lines of the Bible to find out what the Bible says about human origins. It’s all right there in black and white. > [@The Fricken Bible](#): > > Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” > > 27 So God created mankind in his own image, > in the image of God he created them; > male and female he created them. > > 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” > 29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. Or, if you prefer the contradictory version presented in Genesis 2: > [@The Fricken Bible](#): > > This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. > 5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. > > 8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. > > 10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates. > > 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” > > 18 The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” > > 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. > > But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. > > 23 The man said, > > “This is now bone of my bones > and flesh of my flesh; > she shall be called ‘woman,’ > for she was taken out of man.” > > 24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. > > 25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/25 "2011-03-01T16:51:39Z")
Serious question: isn’t the War in Heaven and the fall of Lucifer originally from _Paradise Lost_? Or did Milton take it from an earlier source? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/26 "2011-03-01T17:09:45Z")
My answer to the OP is essentially the same as **Diogenes** , but from the perspective of a believer: you cannot reconcile the idea that humans are fallen angels with the Biblical record. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/27 "2011-03-01T17:40:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Serious question: isn’t the War in Heaven and the fall of Lucifer originally from _Paradise Lost_? Or did Milton take it from an earlier source? And aren’t there some sources that suggest that Lucifer rebelled precisely because he objected to God’s decision to create human beings? Or am I remembering that solely from the _Silmarillion_? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/28 "2011-03-01T17:52:16Z")
IIRC (and Dio would know best), it’s in Revelations about a War in Heaven between the Angels on the side of God and those on the side of the Dragon, and that the Dragon and his followers lost and were cast out. The trouble is, Revelations was basically a religious text written by someone on a serious acid trip (or, more generously, it’s entirely symbolic…much of it, again IIRC, actually had to do with the early church and Rome, with Rome, since the early Christians didn’t want to come right out and condemn Rome as evil or whatever). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/29 "2011-03-01T17:58:26Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Serious question: isn’t the War in Heaven and the fall of Lucifer originally from _Paradise Lost_? Or did Milton take it from an earlier source? It’s from Milton, yes. He sort of took from this passage in revelation: _And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels; 12:8And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him._ ( **Rev. 12:7-9** ) But that is a description of what will happen at the _end_ of the world, not something has happened yet. Milton took the passage and moved it to the beginning of time rather than the end. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/30 "2011-03-01T18:02:24Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > And aren’t there some sources that suggest that Lucifer rebelled precisely because he objected to God’s decision to create human beings? Or am I remembering that solely from the _Silmarillion_? [Life of Adam and Eve](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_of_Adam_and_Eve) (also called _the Apocalypse of Moses_) has Satan telling Eve that he was cast out of heaven for refusing to bow to humans. Milton has a similar them, though I don’t know if that was his source. I believe that the Book of Mormon also contains some version of that story, though I’m not positive about that. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/31 "2011-03-01T18:03:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Also, the Devil wasn’t banished to Earth, he was banished to Hell. Come on XT, everybody knows that L.A. is, in fact, on the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/32 "2011-03-01T18:11:55Z")
There are many theistic interpretations of where we come from, and the Abrahamic monotheistic ones you are discussing (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) are just one of many. So another question is why would the beliefs of Abrahamic monotheism be any more valid than any of the other spiritual and theistic descriptions of life. Certain sects of christianity have different interpretations of Lucifer and the meaning of life. Christianity is a branch of Abrahamic monotheism. Abrahamic monotheism is a branch of monotheism. Monotheism is a branch of Theism, and theism is one of many religious POVs on spirituality and theology (animism, totemism, whatever else I can dig up on wikipedia, etc). So what makes this particular branch special other than it is the branch that is endorsed by this particular culture? From an evolutionary POV, we aren’t fallen angels as much as we are risen monkeys. We are primates who are better at culture, language, cooperation, compassion, cognition, tool making, etc. than our evolutionary cousins. As an example, humans can feel compassion across species lines (compassion for a bird, as an example), something most other animals cannot do. In that sense we are risen above other animals. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/33 "2011-03-01T18:40:36Z")
Personally, I think of myself as a risen demon, but to each their own. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/34 "2011-03-01T20:28:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Where did you get this story? I can’t seem to find it in the Bible. I’m curious how much of the OP’s idea is derived from second- and third-hand readings of _Paradise Lost_, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/35 "2011-03-01T20:30:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > And aren’t there some sources that suggest that Lucifer rebelled precisely because he objected to God’s decision to create human beings? Or am I remembering that solely from the _Silmarillion_? The Silmarillion? How? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/36 "2011-03-01T20:34:25Z")
> [@](#): > > As an example, humans can feel compassion across species lines (compassion for a bird, as an example), something most other animals cannot do. In that sense we are risen above other animals. Haven’t there been examples of other great apes who (attempt to) care for pets? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/37 "2011-03-01T21:05:21Z")
> [@Brian\_o](#): > > It seems outlandish, but is it? This is how I see it. There are some fallen angels, sometimes called demons, out there, as well as ‘regular’ or ‘Holy’ angels out there, and ‘people’ who are the children of angels (both good and bad), and hybrids called nephelum \. We are all mixed together, put into common bodies so we can’t see who each person really is, and then God pressed play. This is also the concept of a old soul (angel/demon) or young soul (child). Angels are just another step in our spiritual evolution, so if your not a angel yet, in time you will be, and those angels now will further evolve (arch-angels). This process goes on. This place we call earth allows a refinement, letting the good separate from the bad. This is a rather mild form of Hell. For the children it is very tough, for the demons it’s almost a vacation spot. One day that will end as the children will come out and only the demons will be left, which God also wishes to save. That’s the lake of fire, where demons who lived a luxurious life on earth will now be at the bottom, cry out for help and be saved. The process of intermixing angels and children with the likes of Lucifer was so God can save His child Lucifer, along with all His other children. God did this so that none would be lost, but all will be saved. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/38 "2011-03-01T21:20:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > To illustrate his point, which would be the opposite of what this story does. Actually, Jesus is pretty explicit in the gospels that he uses parables to obscure, not illustrate, his point, so that only the righteous will receive his teachings. > [@Matthew 13:10-16](#): > > Then the disciples came and asked him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” > > He answered, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. The reason I speak to them in parables is that ‘seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not listen, nor do they understand.’ > > “With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah that says: ‘You will indeed listen, but never understand, and you will indeed look, but never perceive. For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; so that they might not look with their eyes, and listen with their ears, and understand with their heart and turn-- and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/39 "2011-03-01T21:26:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This is how I see it. > There are some fallen angels, sometimes called demons, out there, as well as ‘regular’ or ‘Holy’ angels out there, and ‘people’ who are the children of angels (both good and bad), and hybrids called nephelum \. We are all mixed together, put into common bodies so we can’t see who each person really is, and then God pressed play. This is also the concept of a old soul (angel/demon) or young soul (child). > > Angels are just another step in our spiritual evolution, so if your not a angel yet, in time you will be, and those angels now will further evolve (arch-angels). This process goes on. > > This place we call earth allows a refinement, letting the good separate from the bad. This is a rather mild form of Hell. For the children it is very tough, for the demons it’s almost a vacation spot. > > One day that will end as the children will come out and only the demons will be left, which God also wishes to save. That’s the lake of fire, where demons who lived a luxurious life on earth will now be at the bottom, cry out for help and be saved. > > The process of intermixing angels and children with the likes of Lucifer was so God can save His child Lucifer, along with all His other children. God did this so that none would be lost, but all will be saved. And your source for this obviously non-biblical based story is…? ---
**Author:** ![Chupacabras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Chupacabras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chupacabras)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/40 "2011-03-01T21:27:52Z")
> [@Brian\_o](#): > > Sorry to offend. Maybe I was just too lazy to describe the whole ordeal after just reading it. But I do find it an interesting premise and haven’t really heard many people talk about it. > > The premise is that humans are really the fallen angels in the Bible. Kind of an answer to the “Where did we come from?” question. > > Short version: God makes Lucifer (Head Angel) and all the other angels. > > Lucifer gets cocky and tries to mutiny. He rallies some of the angels to fight with him against God and overtake heaven. > > He loses. So he and his followers are cast out of heaven, but since they’re eternal, they have to be “imprisoned” somewhere. > > Is it here, on Earth? Genesis could be interpreted that way. First he is cast out. And now all the angels that followed him are born human and given the opportunity to either follow God or Lucifer. Many have chosen one or the other… so is it a valid theory? > > It seems outlandish, but is it? As a Catholic, I know most of these stories from the Bible. As some have said already, it could be taken metaphorically as anything, but I think within the strict, creationist, narrow interpretation of the bible, Lucifer is cast down and becomes Satan, and all the angels who fell with him are later turned into the demons. However, if you want to take the interpretation as we humans are fallen angels, it will add credence to the thought that humans are in themselves divine, rather than some divine creator far above us all. Depends how you want to view it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004.md?page=3)