# Are We Fallen Angels? again **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004 "2011-03-01T01:51:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/41 "2011-03-01T21:28:27Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Actually, Jesus is pretty explicit in the gospels that he uses parables to obscure, not illustrate, his point, so that only the righteous will receive his teachings. Ain’t _that_ a kick in the head-preaching to the converted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/42 "2011-03-01T21:30:19Z")
> [@Chupacabras](#): > > As a Catholic, I know most of these stories from the Bible. As some have said already, it could be taken metaphorically as anything, but I think within the strict, creationist, narrow interpretation of the bible, Lucifer is cast down and becomes Satan, and all the angels who fell with him are later turned into the demons. > > However, if you want to take the interpretation as we humans are fallen angels, it will add credence to the thought that humans are in themselves divine, rather than some divine creator far above us all. Depends how you want to view it. If Lucifer is cast down to become Satan at the end of the book, who was Satan the rest of the time? ---
**Author:** ![Chupacabras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Chupacabras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chupacabras)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/43 "2011-03-01T21:33:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If Lucifer is cast down to become Satan at the end of the book, who was Satan the rest of the time? Depends on your definition of book in this case. Lucifer is cast down at the end of the Book of Genesis, which is one of 66 books that compose the larger book known as the Bible. If you are referring to the Book of Genesis, there is no reference to Satan while God is creating the Earth, etc. etc. However, if you are referring to the entire Bible, Genesis is at the beginning, so Lucifer is Satan for the other 65 books. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/44 "2011-03-01T21:37:18Z")
> [@Chupacabras](#): > > Depends on your definition of book in this case. > > Lucifer is cast down at the end of the Book of Genesis, which is one of 66 books that compose the larger book known as the Bible. > > If you are referring to the Book of Genesis, there is no reference to Satan while God is creating the Earth, etc. etc. > > However, if you are referring to the entire Bible, Genesis is at the beginning, so Lucifer is Satan for the other 65 books. Lucifer is mentioned in which book of the Bible, again? ---
**Author:** ![Chupacabras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Chupacabras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chupacabras)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/45 "2011-03-01T21:39:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Lucifer is mentioned in which book of the Bible, again? Lucifer is only mentioned by the name “Lucifer” in Genesis. So once again, the stand that Lucifer becomes Satan is open to interpretation, as the Bible never explicitly states that Lucifer = Satan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/46 "2011-03-01T21:45:29Z")
> [@](#): > > If Lucifer is cast down to become Satan at the end of the book, who was Satan the rest of the time? Modesty forbids me from answering this question, Czarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/47 "2011-03-01T21:46:26Z")
> [@Chupacabras](#): > > Lucifer is only mentioned by the name “Lucifer” in Genesis. > > So once again, the stand that Lucifer becomes Satan is open to interpretation, as the Bible never explicitly states that Lucifer = Satan. Genesis? Try Isaiah 14:12, "When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased! … How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of congregation on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: “Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?”, a passage referring to the King of Babylon. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/48 "2011-03-01T22:34:13Z")
> [@Chupacabras](#): > > Lucifer is only mentioned by the name “Lucifer” in Genesis. No such character as “Lucifer” is mentioned anywhere in the Bible except for the Vulgate translation of a Greek word referring to the King of Babylon as the “morning star.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/49 "2011-03-01T23:01:32Z")
Humans are **risen** angels. We can fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/50 "2011-03-02T00:26:39Z")
While we’re at it, Satan (by that name) is mentioned once in First Chronicles, several times in Job, once in the Psalms, and twice in Zechariah, and nowhere else in the Old Testament. And nowhere in the Old Testament is there any claim that the Serpent of Eden was Satan or Lucifer or any sort of demon or devil at all: It’s just described as a very cunning animal. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/51 "2011-03-02T00:38:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And your source for this obviously non-biblical based story is…? The Bible certainly has angels walking around mentioned many times in the OT and NT, as well as ‘a devil’ (Judas ID’s as ‘a devil’ by Jesus), and also mentioned that the nephlium around before the flood ‘and after’. There is no hard place where I can point to a demon in the flesh by verse where the being was ID’s as a demon, but Queen Jezebel fits the bill. Jesus also talks about us being children of God, and mentioned children of the devil (talking about some pharisees). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/52 "2011-03-02T00:40:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > While we’re at it, Satan (by that name) is mentioned once in First Chronicles, several times in Job, once in the Psalms, and twice in Zechariah, and nowhere else in the Old Testament. And nowhere in the Old Testament is there any claim that the Serpent of Eden was Satan or Lucifer or any sort of demon or devil at all: It’s just described as a very cunning animal. And while we are at it the serpent from the garden is positively ID’s as the devil or Satan in Revelation twice. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/53 "2011-03-02T00:43:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > And while we are at it the serpent from the garden is positively ID’s as the devil or Satan in Revelation twice. Outright, or through your rather unique interpretive skills? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/54 "2011-03-02T00:50:52Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Actually, Jesus is pretty explicit in the gospels that he uses parables to obscure, not illustrate, his point, so that only the righteous will receive his teachings. He really does not go that far - you seem to be assigning intent to obscure, though that is not being said. He does say he speaks in parables because they don’t hear. Jesus asked Peter who do you say I am, Peter replies the Christ, Jesus says in reply that (knowing) came from above. Meaning that unless the Father opens one’s eyes and ears you can’t see or hear things of God (this is also evident in scripture at Stephan’s stoning in Acts, Stephan sees God, the pharisees don’t). This has to carry over to what s said here, as scriptures can not be broken. It’s not that Jesus doesn’t want them to see and hear, it is that the people can not see or hear. Parables is a attempt to illustrate what is going on in your own life without mentioning the person, thereby avoiding the defense mechanism that blinds us. This is done today in the movies, books and TV programs we like, it tells us something about ourselves in a way that we can accept more readily then if someone told us our flaws directly. We can even see Jesus’ disappointment when he heals (I believe) 10 people and only 1 came back, how few people can even see direct miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/55 "2011-03-02T01:01:35Z")
Wouldn’t Genesis 6:1-4 argue against us / humans being angels as the passage refers to the “sons of God” and “daughters of men” as two distinct groups? [QUOTE=Genesis 6 (KJV)] 1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/56 "2011-03-02T01:42:58Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Wouldn’t Genesis 6:1-4 argue against us / humans being angels as the passage refers to the “sons of God” and “daughters of men” as two distinct groups? It just means both types are on earth. And since their children are there ‘also afterwards (after the flood)’ both types (angels and men) would be needed after the flood also to create the hybrid children ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/57 "2011-03-02T01:46:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There is no hard place where I can point to a demon in the flesh by verse where the being was ID’s as a demon, but Queen Jezebel fits the bill. Jezebel is pretty clearly a human being. She’s the daughter of Ithobaal I of Tyre (Ethbaal in the book of Kings), who took over Phoenecia and married his daughter to Ahab. She’s not identified as a supernatural being at all. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/58 "2011-03-02T01:47:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Outright, or through your rather unique interpretive skills? You can decide for yourself: [QUOTE= Revelation 12:9] The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. [/QUOTE] (note also Satan’s angels, perhaps we can call them demons, were hurled down to the earth) [QUOTE=Revelation 20:2] He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/59 "2011-03-02T01:54:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Jezebel is pretty clearly a human being. She’s the daughter of Ithobaal I of Tyre (Ethbaal in the book of Kings), who took over Phoenecia and married his daughter to Ahab. She’s not identified as a supernatural being at all. Neither is Judas a supernatural being, though Judas is clearly a devil (ID’s by Jesus as such). My point is that we (mankind) are made up of angels, demons, ‘humans/children’, nephium. all walking around in human bodies. Queen Jezebel had a human body but perhaps was a demon. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004/60 "2011-03-02T02:46:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Neither is Judas a supernatural being, though Judas is clearly a devil (ID’s by Jesus as such). > > My point is that we (mankind) are made up of angels, demons, ‘humans/children’, nephium. all walking around in human bodies. Queen Jezebel had a human body but perhaps was a demon. I don’t think Jesus was saying that Judas was literally the devil. Just that he was doing the work of the devil in plotting against him. Jesus was speaking metaphorically, as he was want to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-fallen-angels-again/573004.md?page=4)