# Are we "Lambs heading to Slaughter" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077 "2012-10-27T22:32:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Back\_to\_basics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Back\_to\_basics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_to_basics)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/1 "2012-10-27T22:32:22Z")
Presidential executive orders grant a significant degree of emergency power to divisions of the executive branch. These powers are centered in an agency of the federal government known as the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). FEMA itself came into existence by means of an executive order. Please note, an emergency is defined by federal law as any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, federal assistance is needed to supplement state and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States. "What the War and Emergency Powers Act does, in conjunction with the above-mentioned executive orders, is to enable the President to “Suspend the Constitution at will”. All the President needs to justify this action is to declare a national emergency. Again, that it is the President himself who declares the emergency; not Congress. Americans should never tolerate the suspension of their Constitutional rights under any circumstance, even when the situation is labeled with an “emergency” status. Also, think about this for a moment “Homeland Security” has the right to suspend your rights as a “Citizen of the United States of America” at anytime no questions asked or answered. I love the United States of America, I just don’t like what the “Lawyers” that are continually elected and re-elected back into office are doing to us all! What are your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/2 "2012-10-27T22:52:06Z")
This is quite simple: there is no law or power under executive order to suspend the Constitution. That is total, absolute, undeniable conspiracy nonsense. All the powers exercised by the Federal government flow from the Constitution, and there are absolutely no secret processes or magic words that allow any branch of the government to usurp powers it is not given by the Constitution. The existence of FEMA does not change the foundational documet of our government by even one micro speck. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/3 "2012-10-27T22:54:07Z")
Given that there is no factual question (or facts) in the OP, let’s send this over to Great Debates. Colibri General Question Moderator ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/4 "2012-10-27T22:54:24Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > What are your thoughts? My thoughs are that as **Ravenman** has pointed out you are misinformed. Would you please share with us where you got the ideas stated in your original post? Unfortunately there is a great deal of misinformation on the 'net. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/5 "2012-10-27T22:59:24Z")
Huh, FEMA death camps. One of the rarer nutball ideas encountered on the SDMB. [hijack]Has anyone bothered to develop ecological models of wacko ideas? This could be highly [del]Illuminati[/del] illuminating. Has some other woo idea recently moved elsewhere, leaving a niche in the SDMB ecosystem? And the FEMA dictatorship idea… what ideas does it feed on? Does it have any natural predators? What would happen if you introduced a population of FEMA deathcampers to a habitat dominated by the Moon Landing Hoax? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/6 "2012-10-27T23:05:58Z")
Even if we were to take it at fact value that: 1. The President can arbitrarily decide when there’s an emergency and 2. The President can use FEMA to do whatever it takes to deal with it That’s not the same as suspending the constitution – for one, if he did something particularly bad I don’t think “state of emergency!” is going to prevent Congress from impeaching him rather quickly. Not to mention you also have to posit that FEMA itself has enough willing members throughout the whole organization that are willing to just do something terrible because the President cried wolf. And it’s not like you can say the President can just fire them and put new ones in place until they listen, there’s a reason the Senate has to confirm executive appointments. ETA: That’s not to say it’s impossible for the President to just up and declare martial law and take over the US – but the circumstances under which it could happen are the same as any other first world nation – it would require a lot of military and popular support behind the President and a lot of hate against the rest of the government. Even then, it wouldn’t flow from existing laws and precedents, it would amount to a military coup. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/7 "2012-10-27T23:09:17Z")
Reported as spam. Just google part of the OP, and you’ll find it in several different web sites. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/8 "2012-10-27T23:11:58Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > FEMA itself came into existence by means of an executive order. > [@](#): > > President Carter’s 1979 executive order merged many of the separate disaster-related responsibilities into the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). Among other agencies, FEMA absorbed: the Federal Insurance Administration, the National Fire Prevention and Control Administration, the National Weather Service Community Preparedness Program, the Federal Preparedness Agency of the General Services Administration and the Federal Disaster Assistance Administration activities from HUD. Civil defense responsibilities were also transferred to the new agency from the Defense Department’s Defense Civil Preparedness Agency. > **[About Us](https://www.fema.gov/about)** > > The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) employs more than 20,000 people nationwide. Headquartered in Washington, D.C., we have 10 regional offices located across the country. We leverage a tremendous capacity to coordinate within the federal... > [@](#): > > Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, PL 100-707, signed into law November 23, 1988; amended the Disaster Relief Act of 1974, PL 93-288. This Act constitutes the statutory authority for most federal disaster response activities especially as they pertain to FEMA and FEMA programs. Ibid. While FEMA came into existence under an EO, it has statutory authority as granted by Congress. So while your specific point is accurate, your innuendo holds no support. > [@](#): > > "What the War and Emergency Powers Act does, in conjunction with the above-mentioned executive orders, is to enable the President to “Suspend the Constitution at will”. Cite? The hype has been in existence since Lincoln. It’s been discussed here before that Lincoln illegally imposed martial law (Ex parte Milligan). I cannot find a “War and Emergency Powers Act.” It seems more of a catch-phrase to rally like-minded \. There is the [National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012), signed into law by Obama in December 2011. Keep in mind the bill had the strong support of the Republican-led House. So if the attempt of the OP is to blame Obama, the bill was a Republican-led effort, especially with the contentious parts of the bill. In fact, when Obama signed the bill, he had reservations: > [@](#): > > “Today I have signed into law H.R. 1540, the “National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012.” I have signed the Act chiefly because it authorizes funding for the defense of the United States and its interests abroad, crucial services for service members and their families, and vital national security programs that must be renewed.” [http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=98513&st=&st1=#axzz1iE5qy7a3](http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=98513&st=&st1=#axzz1iE5qy7a3) But he also said: > [@](#): > > “The fact that I support this bill as a whole does not mean I agree with everything in it. In particular, I have signed this bill despite having serious reservations with certain provisions that regulate the detention, interrogation, and prosecution of suspected terrorists.” > > – snip – > > “Two critical limitations in section 1021 confirm that it solely codifies established authorities. First, under section 1021(d), the bill does not “limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.” Second, under section 1021(e), the bill may not be construed to affect any “existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.” My Administration strongly supported the inclusion of these limitations in order to make clear beyond doubt that the legislation does nothing more than confirm authorities that the Federal courts have recognized as lawful under the 2001 AUMF. Moreover, I want to clarify that my Administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens. Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions and values as a Nation. My Administration will interpret section 1021 in a manner that ensures that any detention it authorizes complies with the Constitution, the laws of war, and all other applicable law.” Ibid. If your concern is generic, as to the rights of all Americans, and those under which the Constitution protects, I think your fear is misguided, to a point. I say to a point, if you also have an honest intent according to Jefferson: [ul] [li] “When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.”[/li][li] “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”[/li][li] “I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”[/li][/ul] However, if the intent of the OP is political, under the current president, this thread needs to be moved to GD so your innuendo can be properly addressed, dissected, and dismissed by more learned members. (I see on preview **Colibri** has not been asleep.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/9 "2012-10-27T23:56:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Reported as spam. Just google part of the OP, and you’ll find it in several different web sites. Why do _good_ essays never find their way here? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/10 "2012-10-27T23:58:18Z")
I think there’s at least one factual error in every sentence of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/11 "2012-10-27T23:59:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why do _good_ essays never find their way here? Because **A Modest Proposal** is too obviously a troll. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/12 "2012-10-28T00:23:12Z")
I wonder if our OP has stumbled across the Continuity of Government provisions and either completely misunderstood them or was led to completely misunderstand them. ---
**Author:** ![Back\_to\_basics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Back\_to\_basics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_to_basics)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/13 "2012-10-28T00:31:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Given that there is no factual question (or facts) in the OP, let’s send this over to Great Debates. > > Colibri > General Question Moderator Thank you Colibri, people like you prove my point, any question contrary to the norm is considered subversive; FEMA exist, Presidential Executive Orders Exist, Homeland Security Exist, Judges putting people in jail for contempt because they failed to appear to answer questions exist! I am a Citizen of the United States of America, a US Army Vet, and Voter! I have the right to question my government, because I should not be afraid of those who are elected to serve the people! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/14 "2012-10-28T00:34:17Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > Thank you Colibri, people like you prove my point, any question contrary to the norm is considered subversive; FEMA exist, Presidential Executive Orders Exist, Homeland Security Exist, Judges putting people in jail for contempt because they failed to appear to answer questions exist! > > I am a Citizen of the United States of America, a US Army Vet, and Voter! > > I have the right to question my government, because I should not be afraid of those who are elected to serve the people! What the holy crap are you talking about? Your thread, which does not have a factual answer because it’s pretty much pure conspiracy theory woo, was moved to the forum which deals, in part, with pure conspiracy theory woo by a moderator of the PRIVATE message board that you posted it on. How that proves any kind of point about anything having to do with the federal government I have no idea. It does, however, prove several points about the basic unreality of your worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Back\_to\_basics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Back\_to\_basics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_to_basics)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/15 "2012-10-28T00:34:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think there’s at least one factual error in every sentence of the OP. Unlike you I am not perfect, just trying to survive under your “Greatness” Oppssss! Another factual error… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/16 "2012-10-28T00:45:33Z")
They talked about FEMA assuming dictatorial powers in that noteworthy documentary, _The X-Files: Fight the Future_. So it must be true. ---
**Author:** ![Back\_to\_basics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Back\_to\_basics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_to_basics)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/17 "2012-10-28T00:46:06Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What the holy crap are you talking about? Your thread, which does not have a factual answer because it’s pretty much pure conspiracy theory woo, was moved to the forum which deals, in part, with pure conspiracy theory woo by a moderator of the PRIVATE message board that you posted it on. How that proves any kind of point about anything having to do with the federal government I have no idea. It does, however, prove several points about the basic unreality of your worldview. Yes my Lord Jayjay! ---
**Author:** ![Back\_to\_basics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Back\_to\_basics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_to_basics)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/18 "2012-10-28T00:47:56Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > They talked about FEMA assuming dictatorial powers in that noteworthy documentary, _The X-Files: Fight the Future_. So it must be true. Never heard of the X Files, is that a book? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/19 "2012-10-28T00:54:31Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > Yes my Lord Jayjay! Hey, I like that! Wonder if I can change my username to that… ---
**Author:** ![Back\_to\_basics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Back\_to\_basics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_to_basics)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/20 "2012-10-28T00:57:57Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Hey, I like that! Wonder if I can change my username to that… Yes you can my Lord Jayjay … then the moderator can move you over to the “Pom pass Jacka$$ section” My Lord!! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077.md?page=2)