# Are we "Lambs heading to Slaughter" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077 "2012-10-27T22:32:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/61 "2012-10-28T16:15:09Z")
Let’s see if my magic works again: I predict a short stay for our new friend. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/62 "2012-10-28T18:25:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The comment on ignorance attacks the argument. > The comment on being a voter is a bit more personal than we need in this forum. > > [/Moderating] Acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/63 "2012-10-29T00:51:36Z")
Hey, take it to PM, you two! You shouldn’t let the kids see Daddy and Daddy fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/64 "2012-10-29T22:03:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > …Daddy and Daddy fighting. What? This is a gay marriage debate, now? I can’t keep up. Who issues the score-cards? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/65 "2012-10-30T00:45:40Z")
Daddy does. That’s another reason they are fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/66 "2012-10-30T13:48:35Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > Americans should never tolerate the suspension of their Constitutional rights under any circumstance, even when the situation is labeled with an “emergency” status. So, during the Second Battle of Bull Run, Union troops should have tried and convicted Confederate troops before shooting them? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/67 "2012-10-30T16:04:57Z")
We now have the nightmare scenario the OP has imagined. A natural disaster has struck several states, and overwhelmed officials have declared disaster areas. In some areas the National Guard is patrolling. The President has used those declarations to create federal disaster areas. On top of that there is an election scheduled in just one week, and some of the states the President has declared federal disaster areas are governed by people who are actively opposed to the President’s re-election. This is the ideal opportunity for the President to declare martial law, suspend elections, replace or neutralize his political opponents, federalize the National Guard and in general do everything the OP is concerned about – using Emergency Powers. Heck, while he’s at it, he could order mass immunizations of 12-year old girls for HPV in the name of safety. In other words, it’s put up or shut up time for tyranny. I invite **Back to basics** to come back in a week and tell us whether he feels the Constitution has been suspended and we’ve been transformed into a dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/68 "2012-10-30T17:08:01Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > You posted a false premise in order to measure how much of a rise you could get out of people? If only there was a word for someone who does that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/69 "2012-10-30T20:59:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So, during the Second Battle of Bull Run, Union troops should have tried and convicted Confederate troops before shooting them? Or, heck, just the guy in a convenience store holding the cashier and one customer hostage, who has already fired two shots at the police. First, we have to get a judge and impanel a jury, then a prosecutor and defender can present preliminary motions… Good thing it wasn’t a hardware store; the people involved would starve to death! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/70 "2012-10-30T21:22:53Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > "What the War and Emergency Powers Act does, in conjunction with the above-mentioned executive orders, is to enable the President to “Suspend the Constitution at will”. > > What are your thoughts? The suspension of the constitution would probably be frowned upon by a nation of private gun owners. It would look like a city after they win a sporting event. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/71 "2012-10-30T22:21:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Or, heck, just the guy in a convenience store holding the cashier and one customer hostage, who has already fired two shots at the police. First, we have to get a judge and impanel a jury, then a prosecutor and defender can present preliminary motions… > > Good thing it wasn’t a hardware store; the people involved would starve to death! Well, that’s a bit different; that’s a private actor. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/72 "2012-10-30T22:27:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The suspension of the constitution would probably be frowned upon by a nation of private gun owners. Meh. Iraq had widespread ownership of guns under Saddam; it didn’t impede him in the slightest. In some America-goes-to-dictatorship scenario, all those guns-for-freedom types won’t even be a speed bump. Despite all their fantasies to the contrary. And that assumes that they aren’t fighting for the dictatorship, which I find more likely. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/73 "2012-10-30T23:28:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The suspension of the constitution would probably be frowned upon by a nation of private gun owners. It would look like a city after they win a sporting event. Or Detroit after a normal event ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/74 "2012-10-31T00:30:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, that’s a bit different; that’s a private actor. True… But aren’t we talking the same principle? There are times when someone does not enjoy the full exercise of his constitutional rights? When someone shoots at a cop, and the cop shoots back (usually with more accuracy) the cop didn’t violate the suspect’s rights. The same for the Bull Run example. I only meant to give a smaller-scale example of the same idea. (Actually, I don’t know the term “private actor” in law, or how it differs from, say, a mob in full riot, or an army in full revolt. I’ll do some Googling!) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/75 "2012-10-31T00:32:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > . . . And that assumes that they aren’t fighting for the dictatorship, which I find more likely. I find your cynicism depressing… Also horribly realistic. I think you’re entirely right. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/76 "2012-10-31T00:48:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Meh. Iraq had widespread ownership of guns under Saddam; it didn’t impede him in the slightest. In some America-goes-to-dictatorship scenario, all those guns-for-freedom types won’t even be a speed bump. Despite all their fantasies to the contrary. And that assumes that they aren’t fighting for the dictatorship, which I find more likely. He be daayed. hung by his own people. Of course we helped a bit Moammar Gadhafi was shot by his own people. The Soviet Union couldn’t stop the Berlin Wall from coming down or the breakup of it’s satellite states. It was the biggest baddest junkyard dog on the planet with a government willing to slaughter thousands of people. Guns aren’t really necessary. Governments can’t shoot everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/77 "2012-10-31T00:58:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He be daayed. hung by his own people. Of course we helped a bit Please; we invaded and set up a puppet government and show trial. It had nothing to do with citizens with guns. Or the opinion of the Iraqi people, one way or another. > [@Magiver](#): > > Moammar Gadhafi was shot by his own people. With a lot of help from planes, drones, etc. > [@Magiver](#): > > The Soviet Union couldn’t stop the Berlin Wall from coming down or the breakup of it’s satellite states. It was the biggest baddest junkyard dog on the planet with a government willing to slaughter thousands of people. Which again, had nothing to do with gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/78 "2012-10-31T01:19:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > All the powers exercised by the Federal government flow from the Constitution, and there are absolutely no secret processes or magic words that allow any branch of the government to usurp powers it is not given by the Constitution. “Supreme Court” has been magic words of choice for government usurpers for quite some time now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/79 "2012-10-31T03:05:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Please; we invaded and set up a puppet government and show trial. It had nothing to do with citizens with guns. Or the opinion of the Iraqi people, one way or another. we invaded, they set up their own government. It’s hardly a puppet government or we’d be drowning in cheap oil. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > With a lot of help from planes, drones, etc. with a little help from planes and drones. that was a boots on the ground venture and it was done by the people of Libya. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Which again, had nothing to do with gun ownership. There is virtually no way a country could stop it’s own armed citizens in an uprising. It’s how this country was formed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077/80 "2012-10-31T03:30:21Z")
> [@Back\_to\_basics](#): > > . . . Judges putting people in jail for contempt because they failed to appear to answer questions exist! 😕 . . . Ermm, yes, they do. Judges who do that are known as “judges.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lambs-heading-to-slaughter/639077.md?page=5)