# Are we lousing the war we started in Iraq? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 9, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906 "2003-12-09T13:43:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/21 "2003-12-09T22:13:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\* The real world isn’t so conducive: Iraqis have **never** - not in 12000 years - known democracy. > > \*\* Forgive my usage of common sense above blind nationalism, and I really hate to point out the obvious, but, _if_ your statement is correct, than where on earth do you get the balls to stand behind and support telling a country they’ve been doing it the wrong way for 12,000 years, and by (our) God, we’ll show em the right way to do it, whether they like it or not, but only after we’ve bombed the hell out of em? Especially when our OWN country doesn’t really seem to have too firm a grasp on things even in our _own_ backyard? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/22 "2003-12-09T22:22:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*Try putting your hatred of Bush/Republicanism aside and looking at what has been achieved. \*\* It’s the same old shit isn’t it? This isn’t a partisan thing, I could care less about that shit, why don’t you stupid fucks understand that. I have to shout now. I AM AGAINST DEMOCRATS LYING TO THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY TO START A FALSE WAR. I AM AGAINST REPULICANS LYING TO THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY TO START A FALSE WAR. I AM AGAINST WHAT BUSH HAS DONE IN REGARDS TO IRAQ. Got it? \*\* > [@](#): > > A vicious tyrant has been overthrown. One who sponsored terrorism and murdered 300,000 of his countrymen. \*\* Look, Saddam is evil, we get it, but we were specifically told that he was a threat to our country because he possessed WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. How stupid must people be not to be outraged by this. This was never about liberating the Iraqi people, and you spit in their faces every time you say that it is. We were told we were going in for reason A, and reason A alone. It is unacceptable to now say, well reason A may not be true but look, Saddam was a real asshole and he killed a lot of people. We were lied to straight up, and Bush is going to get away with it because of YOU! \*\* > [@](#): > > A Stalin in the making. He’s out there still, probably, but we’ll get him.\*\* Just like Osama. :rolleyes: Now we have 2 guys who are pissed at America and running around with suitcases filled with hundreds of millions of cash. \*\* > [@](#): > > Anti-Bushists seem to expect perfection off-bat. The real world isn’t so conducive: Iraqis have **never** - not in 12000 years - known democracy.\*\* Perfection off the bat? How about I expect that if we are told a country has powerful weapons that endanger humanity, and there is no alternative except to preemptively attack _RIGHT THIS FUCKING SECOND!!!_, that we find said weapons within the first week, let alone 6 months later. Is that too much to ask? \*\* > [@](#): > > Iraq is the cradle of civilisation, but is late-come to democracy. It’ll take time but we’ll nurture it. \*\* Nice, we’re closing firehouses and homeless shelters in NYC so we can “nurture” democracy on the other side of the world by wasting hundreds of billions of dollars and decades in commitment. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/23 "2003-12-09T22:24:15Z")
Oh, and for the record… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*Tell me, how do you judge winning or losing? Deaths are newsworthy, American deaths most of all; other stuff isn’t. > > More Americans died on D-Day alone. Don’t you agree that their sacrifice was worth it? > \*\* Once again hating to point out the obvious, the difference being France actually WANTED us there to liberate them. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/24 "2003-12-09T22:30:59Z")
**Cerri**. It’s useless. It’ll be _freedom_ fries all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/25 "2003-12-09T22:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Anti-Bushists seem to expect perfection off-bat. To say nothing of these traitorous BASTARDS: > [@](#): > > Two Republican U.S. congressmen just back from a trip to Iraq urged President Bush on Tuesday to accept an independent panel to audit U.S. operations there, and called on him to acknowledge mistakes that they said set back Iraq’s recovery by months. [Two Republicans Seek Audit of U.S. Iraq Operations](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=5&u=/nm/20031209/pl_nm/iraq_usa_congress_dc) This is no time to be dissing party leadership. Who do they think they are, Newt Gingrich!? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/26 "2003-12-09T23:02:43Z")
Don’t keep it all blocked up inside, **World Eater**. Tell us what you really think. ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/27 "2003-12-09T23:34:16Z")
**qts** , America is pretty selective about where it promotes democracy. Consider Azerbaijan, America’s new [military pal](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33186-2003Dec3.html), where President Ilham Aliyev has [eliminated all his political opponents](http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/10/azerbaijan102203.htm). Hey, and speaking of “Stalin in the making,” what about Turkmenistan, where > [@](#): > > President Saparmurad Niyazov, also called Turkmenbashi or “head of all Turkmen”, is the former Secretary General of the Turkmen Communist Party. Elected president in 1992, in a 1994 referendum his presidency was extended until 2002 with [99.9 percent of the vote](http://www.american.edu/projects/mandala/TED/turkmen.htm). Niyazov has several [bad habits](http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2000/09/rall2.html), like erecting [giant golden statues of himself](http://cenasia-fiction.netfirms.com/images/gallery/akaltynow.htm). The only legal primary textbook in the country is his autobiography, “a gift to the people.” Political opponents are [imprisoned, tortured, or murdered](http://web.amnesty.org/pages/tkm-120903-background-eng). Despite all that, > [@](#): > > He maintains good relations with the CIA, whose closely-shorn agents you’ll find cold-chillin’ at the Florida casino/English pub/hamburger joint across the street from the Sheraton after a hard day at the US Embassy… Hell, we were good buddies with Saddam for years. The U.S. shamelessly supplying him with [conventional and chemical weapons](http://www.belleville.com/mld/newsdemocrat/5674107.htm) which he used to attack Iran, which we liked, and kill hundreds of thousands of his own people, who we frankly [didn’t give two shits about.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer) In preview, I see I’m a little slow on the draw. But it’s always a mitzvah to refute government propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/28 "2003-12-09T23:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > Tell me, how do you judge winning or losing? Deaths are newsworthy, American deaths most of all; other stuff isn’t. Well Bush is certainly winning (the next election campaign). He might be losing the War on Terrorism, but who cares? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > More Americans died on D-Day alone. Don’t you agree that their sacrifice was worth it? Ah, so Bush invaded Iraq because Hitler invaded Poland and Japan bombed Pearl Harbour. 😕 Millions died in World War 2 (mainly civilians). Don’t you agree their sacrifice was worth it if Bush gets re-elected? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* (bolding mine) > Try putting your hatred of Bush/Republicanism aside and looking at what has been achieved. A vicious tyrant has been overthrown. **One who sponsored terrorism** and murdered 300,000 of his countrymen. A Stalin in the making. He’s out there still, probably, but we’ll get him. Try putting your ignorance aside. Which US political party installed Saddam in power? Which US political party sold Saddam the weapons to gas his own people? In case you suffer from short-term memory loss, this war was about Weapons of Mass Destruction, not overthrowing tyrants. Which tyrant is Bush going to overthrow next - or has his ‘policy’ changed? And finally your propaganda about sponsored terrorism - do you think Saddam had anything to do with 9/11? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > Anti-Bushists seem to expect perfection off-bat. No, just honesty. Remember the nuclear weapons that Saddam ‘had’? Remember the passionate speech made by Blair to the UK Parliament, where he warned us that Saddam had weapons aimed at British bases, ready to fire in 45 minutes? All lies. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > The real world isn’t so conducive: Iraqis have **never** - not in 12000 years - known democracy. > > Iraq is the cradle of civilisation, but is late-come to democracy. It’ll take time but we’ll nurture it. How is democracy going in Afghanistan then? Let me stop poking the obvious gaping holes in your argument for now, and tell you what really depresses me. I felt that Bush did the right thing in Afghanistan. He was pursuing a terrorist who had attacked the US directly, and there was an international alliance to support the US. There were decent attempts to bring a representative Government to this war-torn country. Of course now the US is stupidly tied up in Iraq (at least till the next US election), so the situation in Afghanistan is rapidly worsening. What a waste. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/29 "2003-12-09T23:55:02Z")
My money is we won’t be seeing **QTS** again. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/30 "2003-12-10T00:39:40Z")
Show me a war that has a lice infestation. Then we’ll figure out to louse it, hey? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/31 "2003-12-10T00:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > When I pointed out that it doesn’t seem Iraq had anything to do with the September 11 hijacks, she replied, “How can you be sure.” My favorite response for this is, “Because Osama Bin Laden used to call on _al Qaeda_ to murder Saddam Hussein, so I don’t think they’d really care to work together.” Not that it would make an impression on thick-headed folks like your coworker. :smack: > [@](#): > > The lack of evidence doesn’t bother some people. So Bush repeats it over and over and too many people seem to swallow it. The repetition from GOPNe-- er, FoxNews, doesn’t help, either. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/32 "2003-12-10T01:31:25Z")
[glee](http://slate.msn.com/id/2091988/) reminded me of this column by Hitchens. By the way, Saddam came to power in 1979. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/33 "2003-12-10T02:23:44Z")
I’ll bet that Hitchens guy is really, _really_ good at Twister. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/34 "2003-12-10T15:59:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\* > Tell me, how do you judge winning or losing? > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*[Defense Leaders Outline Conditions for Success in Iraq, Coalition Progress\*\*](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2003/n12092003_200312095.html) > > WASHINGTON, Dec. 9, 2003 - Defense Secretary Donald H. > Rumsfeld today outlined the conditions to be met for the > coalition to achieve its goals in Iraq: **Iraqi self- > governance, responsibility for its own internal security > and a growing economy that encourages people "to come back > to the country rather than leave."** > > Also critical, he told Pentagon reporters, is that **Iraq > remain one country that does not pose a threat to its > neighbors and that it "have a governance system that is > respectful of the diverse elements within the country — > religious and ethnic.** ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/35 "2003-12-10T16:15:48Z")
Well I won’t be holding my breath for that. ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/36 "2003-12-10T16:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\*Iraq is the cradle of civilisation, but is late-come to democracy. It’ll take time but we’ll nurture it. \*\* Hummmmmm. Maybe while nurturing we can explain how the guy who got the most votes lost the election in this democracy. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/37 "2003-12-10T17:50:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by qts \* > \*\* > Anti-Bushists seem to expect perfection off-bat. > \*\* It would’ve been nice if we’d just gone with the best planning available, including planning for worst case scenarios instead of discarding it in favor of planning for hugs and flowers. Tellingly, the State Dept’s plans have been retrieved from the dustbin recently. They’re good for something after all it turns out. Too bad we didn’t start with them. I know, I know Chalabi himself promised hugs and flowers. But after all, he’s yet to account for millions of US taxpayer’s money. I forget why we decided to go ahead and trust him some more. Certainly it’s alright to find fault with those who’d make plans when livces are on the line w/o planning for worst case scenarios. That doesn’t mean I hate Bush does it, calling for responsible foreign policy ventures? And wasn’t there a deomcracy of sorts between the British occupation and Qasim coming to power? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/38 "2003-12-10T19:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 5que \* > Hummmmmm. Maybe while nurturing we can explain how the guy who got the most votes lost the election in this democracy. It’s called the _Electoral College_. Look into it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/39 "2003-12-10T19:40:18Z")
Who still gives a shit about the 2000 election? It’s over! Move on and get with the times for chrissakes. We have so many problems today, and we still have idiots who are concerned with the events of 3 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906/40 "2003-12-10T19:41:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*It’s called the _Electoral College_. Look into it. \*\* Yeah, I seem to remember that from 9th grade Civics class. It probably worked well back in the white-guy landholder days, but I don’t think we should get a government of the guy that came in second in the popular vote (regardless of Party). I’d move to Canada, but they’re too patriotic. At least that’s what I hear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-lousing-the-war-we-started-in-iraq/217906.md?page=3)