# Are we making wrong & lazy assumptions about Trump's appeal & his followers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 7, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167 "2016-03-07T01:46:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/61 "2016-03-12T14:44:33Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > While it’s true that many Trump fans are falling for the lie that the Mexicans/blacks/Muslims/“the other” in general are to blame for their woes, Many Trump fans fully understand that it is the refusal of the government to enforce duly passed immigration laws, not the illegal aliens themselves, that is to blame. Jeb Bush did everything but stand on the north bank of the Rio Grande handing out green cards from the back of a Chevy van, to make it clear to his donors that he would give them the cheap labor they so desperately crave. That’s why the real hate in this campaign is between Trump supporters and the Jeb Bush wing of the GOP. As far as “blacks”, there’s been a lot of Soros-funded clowning going on (BLM, black brunch, bringing down a university president because random yahoos yelled “nigger” from a passing truck) that doesn’t deserve to be engaged with on any kind of serious level. So Trump doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/62 "2016-03-12T15:59:17Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > As far as “blacks”, there’s been a lot of Soros-funded clowning going on (BLM, black brunch, bringing down a university president because random yahoos yelled “nigger” from a passing truck) that doesn’t deserve to be engaged with on any kind of serious level. So Trump doesn’t. The bigotry here is gag-inducing. And also, as is always is, factually wrong. [No, George Soros Didn’t Give $33 Million to #BlackLivesMatter](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/19/no-george-soros-didn-t-give-33-million-to-blacklivesmatter.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/63 "2016-03-12T17:17:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [No, George Soros Didn’t Give $33 Million to #BlackLivesMatter](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/19/no-george-soros-didn-t-give-33-million-to-blacklivesmatter.html) Except that was not what I claimed. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/64 "2016-03-12T17:27:22Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Except that was not what I claimed. I think you need to check your posts. > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > As far as “blacks”, there’s been a lot of Soros-funded clowning going on (BLM, black brunch, bringing down a university president because random yahoos yelled “nigger” from a passing truck) that doesn’t deserve to be engaged with on any kind of serious level. So Trump doesn’t. \*\* Exapno Mapcase \*\*point is clearly that claiming that Soros is funding BLM is not accurate, FOX people like O’Reilly are just fooling many conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/65 "2016-03-12T17:52:58Z")
> [@furt](#): > > My buddy is looking to go on the house market soon, but is pretty intimidated by home prices in the area. When I told him about this experience, he asked me if illegal aliens are allowed to buy a house. I said that, AFAIK, there’s no legal barrier. My friend, a blue-collar guy, was clearly frustrated. Is he a racist? I don’t think so; I think he’s a guy who wants to buy a house and resents that he may have to compete with people who have broken the law. There are a lot of laws, we all break some from time to time. Did he ask about any other crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/66 "2016-03-12T20:24:34Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Many Trump fans fully understand that it is the refusal of the government to enforce duly passed immigration laws, not the illegal aliens themselves, that is to blame. Jeb Bush did everything but stand on the north bank of the Rio Grande handing out green cards from the back of a Chevy van, to make it clear to his donors that he would give them the cheap labor they so desperately crave. That’s why the real hate in this campaign is between Trump supporters and the Jeb Bush wing of the GOP. How will enforcing immigration laws convince capitalists to bring jobs back from Asia and pay higher wages? Trump fans have a reason to be angry, but the target of their blame is so misplaced it’s hard to take them seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/67 "2016-03-13T21:02:37Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > \*\* > Exapno Mapcase \*\*point is clearly that claiming that Soros is funding BLM is not accurate, FOX people like O’Reilly are just fooling many conservatives. I read the link he provided. What it says is that the three people who pushed Bernie Sanders off the stage didn’t get any money from Soros. But then later in the article, his foundation said it donates money to “groups working on issues arising out of the Black Lives Matter movement.” I suppose this is like when the CIA donated money to “groups working on issues arising out of the coup against Mossadegh.” ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/68 "2016-03-13T21:03:51Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > How will enforcing immigration laws convince capitalists to bring jobs back from Asia and pay higher wages? Trump fans have a reason to be angry, but the target of their blame is so misplaced it’s hard to take them seriously. Immigration and offshoring are two different issues. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/69 "2016-03-13T21:25:30Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I read the link he provided. What it says is that the three people who pushed Bernie Sanders off the stage didn’t get any money from Soros. But then later in the article, his foundation said it donates money to “groups working on issues arising out of the Black Lives Matter movement.” > > I suppose this is like when the CIA donated money to “groups working on issues arising out of the coup against Mossadegh.” You made the explicit claim that Soros funded “BLM, black brunch, bringing down a university president because random yahoos yelled “nigger” from a passing truck”. Why don’t you back those up? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/70 "2016-03-13T22:09:54Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Immigration and offshoring are two different issues. Yes they are. And I remain confused. What exactly is the concern with immigration at this point in time? More Mexicans are [leaving](http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/) the United States than entering, with the overall flow lower than it has been since the '90s. Unemployment has dropped dramatically. And [wages](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/business/economy/jobs-report-unemployment-january-fed-interest-rates.html) are starting to rise. I am confused but my limited understanding is that the actual problem being experienced is the loss of middle class jobs, especially but not only for those without a college education, and most dramatically in rural America. The only way I can see building a bigger wall and more effort to deport those who are here illegally and to make sure that their status remains illegal helps further improve employment is that both would be government jobs programs, hiring people to build the wall and to try to round people up and deport them. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/71 "2016-03-13T22:23:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes they are. And I remain confused. > > What exactly is the concern with immigration at this point in time? > > More Mexicans are [leaving](http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/) the United States than entering, with the overall flow lower than it has been since the '90s. > > Unemployment has dropped dramatically. And [wages](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/business/economy/jobs-report-unemployment-january-fed-interest-rates.html) are starting to rise. > > I am confused but my limited understanding is that the actual problem being experienced is the loss of middle class jobs, especially but not only for those without a college education, and most dramatically in rural America. > > The only way I can see building a bigger wall and more effort to deport those who are here illegally and to make sure that their status remains illegal helps further improve employment is that both would be government jobs programs, hiring people to build the wall and to try to round people up and deport them. If all illegal immigrants were raptured out of the labor market tomorrow, wages at the bottom would rise significantly, that is just basic economics. But the prices of many things would also rise, like the meat that is produced by illegal immigrant farm, ranch, and slaughterhouse workers, and buildings built by illegal immigrant workers. Inexpensive food and shelter are very beneficial, especially to poor and middle class people. So are higher paying jobs. The population isn’t divided up into two groups, one that benefits from illegal immigration, and another that is harmed by it. All of us are in both groups, to one degree or another. There is a trade off going on here that doesn’t usually get discussed realistically when the issue comes up. There is a lot of zealotry from all directions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/72 "2016-03-14T02:07:57Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > If all illegal immigrants were raptured out … Yeah, we can stop right there. I’m not really interested in discussing Christian fundamentalist sci fi today. Real world. Rapture is not on the table at this particular moment Why is the issue of cracking down on illegal immigration so particularly of high priority now when the actual numbers currently show an efflux and show both improved employment numbers and wages? Isn’t the issue in fact the hollowing out of the middle class, particularly for those without college education (and on the Democratic side, the cost of that college education)? Yup, as discussed in several threads here, non-college educated Whites used to still have reasonable shot at being broadly middle class, decent paying Blue collar jobs, but now they are looking at service industry work if lucky enough to be working at all more commonly. That sucks for them and I am not being cute. It does. There are many contributing factors to that circumstance and addressing it intelligently and fairly must be a high priority item. What does _not_ contribute to it is a tremendous increase in illegal low wage workers that in fact in no way exists. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/73 "2016-03-14T02:45:01Z")
It’s not an increase because the time period you are comparing to also had very high levels of illegal immigrant labor. The counterfactual is not in the past where there were a smidgen more, but a hypothetical future where there are far less. My suggestion is that this scenario could play out as follows: teenagers and laid off low-skill workers would easily be able to find $15-$25 an hour jobs, but they might not be able to afford a steak dinner or new roof due to increased cost of labor. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/74 "2016-03-14T04:15:29Z")
> [@furt](#): > > This is untrue. Adams has said repeatedly that he is mostly apolitical and would be OK with any of the candidates in either party. He thinks Trump will win, and admires his persuasion skills, but that’s not an endorsement. Yes, he does say that, and then praises Trump repeatedly, praises and defends his positions, and prints a letter from a Trumpist and calls it “beautiful.” Adams supports Trump and is trying to convince people to vote for him. When he claims to not support Trump, he’s lying. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/75 "2016-03-14T12:53:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Why is the issue of cracking down on illegal immigration so particularly of high priority now when the actual numbers currently show an efflux … Is there new, actual data to support this claim, or are you relying on that Pew Research study which concluded that there was a net efflux during the period from 2008-2014? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/76 "2016-03-14T13:44:59Z")
One article I read about Trump indicated a strong correlation between Trump supporters and low income and low education. More specifically, working class people from manufacturing based communities and regions that have been suffering an economic decline, really since the late 70s. These are people who did not share in the “success” of the dot-com boom, the real estate market bubble, or the second tech bubble we are experiencing now. What they are experiencing is their factories being closed by moving overseas and their small stores being undercut by big box stores like Walmart that buy goods cheaply in China. So for them, Trumps message of protectionism strikes a chord, regardless of how misguided it is. > [@DSeid](#): > > Isn’t the issue in fact the hollowing out of the middle class, particularly for those without college education (and on the Democratic side, the cost of that college education)? Yup, as discussed in several threads here, non-college educated Whites used to still have reasonable shot at being broadly middle class, decent paying Blue collar jobs, but now they are looking at service industry work if lucky enough to be working at all more commonly. That sucks for them and I am not being cute. It does. It does suck for them. But these are not issues that Trump can fix. The “hollowing out of the middle class” is one of the side effects of economic trends that have existed since the 70s (possibly earlier). Globalization, automation, disruptive technology, urbanization. This is not going to change any time soon. [This map shows a strong correlation between Trump supporters and internet searches for racial jokes. It also show a strong correlation with “where people live”.](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/upshot/donald-trumps-strongest-supporters-a-certain-kind-of-democrat.html?_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/77 "2016-03-14T16:45:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, he does say that, and then praises Trump repeatedly, praises and defends his positions, and prints a letter from a Trumpist and calls it “beautiful.” > > Adams supports Trump and is trying to convince people to vote for him. When he claims to not support Trump, he’s lying. Do you have a cite for this, or is this your mindreading? From his blog, three days ago: > [@](#): > > Disclaimer: I already disavowed Trump’s policies. I don’t agree with any of the candidates on the big stuff. My interest in Trump is his persuasion skills. He makes the same kind of disclaimer in about every third post. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/78 "2016-03-14T16:59:06Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Yes, the Trump fans hate and revile the current Democratic President, and the Sanders fans hate and revile the current GOP Senate leadership. But neither group was particularly happy when the President was a Republican and when the Senate leadership was Democratic. At no time, both groups seem to believe, were their own concerns uppermost in the minds of those in charge of government (federal or state). > > Both sets of discontents seem similar in their belief that an election of the usual kind will result in no real change–just more of the same. Well, both sets are **right** on that point, aren’t they? > [@Sherrerd](#): > > It’s true that election of ‘establishment’ candidates (for President and for open congressional seats) is unlikely to result in radical, extreme change. But what both groups may have failed to consider is that radical, extreme change _may_ not, necessarily, leave them better off. What else are they to do, then, be content with the Establishment, forever? That’s just doing the same thing over and over in hopes of a different result, it’s insanity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/79 "2016-03-14T17:00:57Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Many Trump fans fully understand that it is the refusal of the government to enforce duly passed immigration laws, not the illegal aliens themselves, that is to blame. Like Hell they do. Such “refusal” is practically nonexistent. And the Trumpers are all about hating targets they can see or vividly imagine – not some faceless dilatory bureaucrats. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/80 "2016-03-14T17:11:37Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Immigration and offshoring are two different issues. Tell Trump and his followers that, **they’re** the ones confused on the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167.md?page=5)