# Are we making wrong & lazy assumptions about Trump's appeal & his followers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 7, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167 "2016-03-07T01:46:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/81 "2016-03-14T17:44:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Tell Trump and his followers that, **they’re** the ones confused on the point. I don’t know if I’d say confused, exactly. They’re two different issues that are perceived as impacting the same thing, namely the availability of jobs at a decent wage for their particular demographic. I’m sure they know that they’re different things, but they’re lumping them together as “external job threats”. The thinking is that if there’s some kind of blue collar job out there, it’s probably threatened by illegal immigrants and/or globalization, either in an existential way, due to layoffs and factory closures, or in a wage-depressing kind of way. They’re not drawing much distinction because they’re ultimately threats from without, that are dealt with via foreign policy, or so they think. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/82 "2016-03-14T18:15:44Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Anecdote: > > My neighbor is an older African-American woman who has lived in her house for decades; when she moved in the town was mostly white. I watched her try to greet a couple of the buyers who were about her age, para no habla ingles. Later on, she asked me how it was going, and I said we were likely to have multiple offers, and mentioned a couple of groups that had just come and gone, including a young caucasian couple. She gave a sigh, and in a lowered voice said “I think I’m gonna root for the white people.” Is she a racist? I don’t think so; I think she’s an old lady that wants to be able to pass the time with the people next door. > > My buddy is looking to go on the house market soon, but is pretty intimidated by home prices in the area. When I told him about this experience, he asked me if illegal aliens are allowed to buy a house. I said that, AFAIK, there’s no legal barrier. My friend, a blue-collar guy, was clearly frustrated. Is he a racist? I don’t think so; I think he’s a guy who wants to buy a house and resents that he may have to compete with people who have broken the law. > > I was talking with another friend about the experience and the changing demographics of the area, and he compared it to the urban neighborhood whose public schools he taught in for years before retiring, and the challenge of parents and students who don’t speak English, and how some teachers ended up transferring to other districts because of it. Is he a racist? I don’t think so; he stayed in that district for years, and he is actively involved in his 80% hispanic church. But he’s not blind to the stresses and strains that demographic change puts on a community. Yeah…that’s actually racist. Or jingoist. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/83 "2016-03-14T19:17:11Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t know if I’d say confused, exactly. They’re two different issues that are perceived as impacting the same thing, namely the availability of jobs at a decent wage for their particular demographic. I’m sure they know that they’re different things, but they’re lumping them together as “external job threats”. > > The thinking is that if there’s some kind of blue collar job out there, it’s probably threatened by illegal immigrants and/or globalization, either in an existential way, due to layoffs and factory closures, or in a wage-depressing kind of way. They’re not drawing much distinction because they’re ultimately threats from without, that are dealt with via foreign policy, or so they think. But, immigration is not a foreign-policy matter. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/84 "2016-03-14T19:20:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Yeah…that’s actually racist. Or jingoist. Whatever. All of them? The old black lady who wants to have neighbors that speak the same language is “jingoist?” :dubious: Ok, then. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/85 "2016-03-14T20:32:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > All of them? The old black lady who wants to have neighbors that speak the same language is “jingoist?” :dubious: > > Ok, then. Not really. I was referencing an Archer quote. But yeah, all those examples you provided represent an intolerance towards people of a different culture or ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/86 "2016-03-14T20:36:24Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not really. I was referencing an Archer quote. > But yeah, all those examples you provided represent an intolerance towards people of a different culture or ethnicity. Are there any limits on what we are supposed to tolerate??? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/87 "2016-03-14T22:56:55Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Are there any limits on what we are supposed to tolerate??? Yes. We can never tolerate intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/88 "2016-03-15T14:20:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, immigration is not a foreign-policy matter. I didn’t say it was, just that this crowd perceives it as being less of an internal matter and more of a matter that should be handled by foreign policy. Which isn’t entirely unreasonable- stemming the flow is a foreign policy matter in part, while dealing with the ones who are here is a domestic issue. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/89 "2016-03-15T15:04:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Yes. We can never tolerate intolerance. Opposing bigotry is bigoted against bigots. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/90 "2016-03-15T15:46:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What else are they to do, then, be content with the Establishment, forever? That’s just doing the same thing over and over in hopes of a different result, it’s insanity. Champion for the establishment to address their issues. (i.e., the real reason to support Sanders–even though he is still unlikely to win.) Keep pushing over time, instead of expecting it all to be fixed all at once. It’s how progress has occurred for decades now. Don’t let your anger overcloud your judgement. Don’t let a very obvious politician goad you into anger so you wind up supporting him. Don’t fall for the idea that a fucking b/millionaire who brags about being better than all poor people (who are “losers”) actually gives a shit about you. Economically, I’m right in the demographic where Trump gets most of his support. And I’m actually someone who wants to see if tariffs might have a place, and I completely do not support the TPP. Yet I would never in a million years vote for him. There’s literally nothing remotely appealing about him. He’s a fucking cartoon villain. You can’t vote for Lex Luther’s less intelligent cousin or the original villainous Scrooge McDuck and expect good things to happen. There’s a reason why we intrinsically hate people who act like Trump in real life–we’ve learned over the millennia of humanity that trusting such people do not lead to good outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/91 "2016-03-15T15:50:28Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Are there any limits on what we are supposed to tolerate??? If there are, I should hope Trump is well and way beyond them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/92 "2016-03-15T16:01:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Champion for the establishment to address their issues. (i.e., the real reason to support Sanders–even though he is still unlikely to win.) Keep pushing over time, instead of expecting it all to be fixed all at once. It’s how progress has occurred for decades now. But take careful note of what progress **hasn’t** occurred for decades now. Recognizing same-sex marriage? The Establishment balks for a while and finally says, “OK, what the Hell, it costs nobody money.” Health-care reform? “Wellll . . . OK, but **not** in any form that hurts the private health-insurance industry’s bottom line.” $15 minimum wage? “We’ll put it on the table for discussion and get back to you . . . eventually . . .” Anything that might really correct middle-class income stagnation, declining job opportunities, increasing wealth inequality, Wall Street malfeasance, the disproportionate political power of the 1%, all our systemic problems going back to the mid-1970s? “The door’s over there, don’t let it hit you where the Good Lord etc.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/93 "2016-03-15T16:17:10Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Are there any limits on what we are supposed to tolerate??? Sure. But it involves actual evil, not punishing someone because of something that they have no control over. I mean, we don’t tolerate murder or rape. Those hurt people. We do tolerate gay people–because no one is hurt. The old woman just assumed that all the Hispanic people would not speak English, because of one group that didn’t. And she’s no worse off if the Hispanic people move in than otherwise. And she explicitly references the “white couple,” not the “couple who speaks English.” The racism is small, but it’s there. The second guy is just resentful of other people who have no real bearing on him. Either they have more money or they don’t–their immigration status has no relevance. The third guy I’m not sure about, but only because I don’t actually understand his point. Is he just saying “Hey, I’ve seen this happen at my school, and it was hard to deal with. But we can deal with this”? Or is he using it as a reason to be against the situation? The latter is problematic; the former is not. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/94 "2016-03-15T16:20:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But take careful note of what progress **hasn’t** occurred for decades now. Recognizing same-sex marriage? The Establishment balks for a while and finally says, “OK, what the Hell, it costs nobody money.” Health-care reform? “Wellll . . . OK, but **not** in any form that hurts the private health-insurance industry’s bottom line.” $15 minimum wage? “We’ll put it on the table for discussion and get back to you . . . eventually . . .” Anything that might really correct middle-class income stagnation, declining job opportunities, increasing wealth inequality, Wall Street malfeasance, the disproportionate political power of the 1%, all our systemic problems going back to the mid-1970s? “The door’s over there, don’t let it hit you where the Good Lord etc.” You literally just described exactly what I’m talking about. Progress that eventually happened because we pushed hard enough. Unfortunately, no one seems to have really pushed for income inequality as an actual issue until lately–mostly because it started affecting white people more. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/95 "2016-03-15T17:17:16Z")
The latest declarations from Carson shows to me that the followers of Trump do expect a lot in return. [http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/03/15/3760261/carson-offered-position-by-trump/](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/03/15/3760261/carson-offered-position-by-trump/) > [@](#): > > Carson told the conservative online site NewsMax TV on Monday that he backed Trump based on a practical calculus. > > “I didn’t see a path for [John] Kasich, who I like, or for [Marco] Rubio, who I like. As far as [Ted] Cruz is concerned, I don’t think he’s gonna be able to draw independents and Democrats unless has has some kind of miraculous change… Is there another scenario that I would have preferred? Yes. But that scenario isn’t available.” Pressed to clarify, Carson said he meant he’d prefer to have backed one of the other candidates. > > Carson then said that Trump had promised him a role in his administration, “certainly in an advisory capacity.” Asked by NewsMax’s Steve Malzberg whether this meant a cabinet position, Carson declined to “reveal any details about it right now, because all of this is still very liquid.” As I pointed before, it is really reckless to offer the keys to the CDC to anti vaccine people like Carson and Trump. And regarding the type of “advice” they are also bound to sabotage any efforts to deal with carbon emissions and climate change. The anti-intellectual factor is very very strong with Trump and his followers. I also will not be surprised to find that like Christie a lot of Republicans will not only put party over country, but also their own self interests over their party. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/96 "2016-03-15T17:23:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You literally just described exactly what I’m talking about. Progress that eventually happened because we pushed hard enough. Unfortunately, no one seems to have really pushed for income inequality as an actual issue until lately–mostly because it started affecting white people more. But I’m afraid we’ve finally come up against that very exact point – that is, the particular economic interests of the 1% – where it ain’t gonna be so easy any more to talk the Establishment around, not without first convincing them that some kind of “political revolution” is an actual serious prospect. “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/97 "2016-03-17T17:06:16Z")
A couple of quick links from Kevin Drum. Today: “Trump Voters Are Not Angry About the Economy. Really.” With charts! And exit polling! Trump does slightly worse with folks concerned about the economy. [Trump Voters Are Not Angry About the Economy. Really. – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/03/trump-voters-are-not-angry-about-economy-really) Also, “Angry voter” is an election year evergreen story: it never changes. And there’s no evidence that voters are more angry this year than any other. Drum thinks that some voters are always susceptible to demagoguery and Trump is just particularly good at this game. The implication is that this moment shall pass. (Unless Trump’s success can be replicated: if he is an innovator as opposed to a one-off talent all bets are off I suppose.) Kevin Drum: Voters are not angry: > **[Say it with me: Voters aren't any angrier this year than usual](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/03/say-it-with-me-voters-arent-any-angrier-year-usual/)** > > I’ve periodically argued that, conventional wisdom notwithstanding, Americans aren’t especially angry at the moment and the country isn’t in especially bad shape. My most recent post along those lines is here. The obvious pushback is that averages... I tend to lean more on Josh Marshall’s analogy to IT: if you don’t maintain your code, you build up debt. I this context debt consists of nonsense and bigotry. For professionals of all kinds, there is an optimal level of debt - but you can’t let it get out of control. The GOP and the right wing media are lost in a morass of derp. Also Cruz. It’s harder for the establishment to take on 2 unacceptable candidates. That tends to support the perfect storm hypothesis though. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/98 "2016-03-17T17:13:31Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Are there any limits on what we are supposed to tolerate??? Sure, but “they talk funny” isn’t quite there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/99 "2016-03-17T19:05:33Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Also, “Angry voter” is an election year evergreen story: it never changes. And there’s no evidence that voters are more angry this year than any other. Drum thinks that some voters are always susceptible to demagoguery and Trump is just particularly good at this game. The implication is that this moment shall pass. (Unless Trump’s success can be replicated: if he is an innovator as opposed to a one-off talent all bets are off I suppose.) It does not really require all that much talent, only that much audacity, to do Trump’s act. Others will learn from his example. They won’t have his outsider-cred nor his celebrity-cred, but I don’t think those are insurmountable deficits – even W somehow managed to sell himself as an “outsider.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167/100 "2016-03-17T19:35:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It does not really require all that much talent, only that much audacity, to do Trump’s act. Others will learn from his example. They won’t have his outsider-cred nor his celebrity-cred, but I don’t think those are insurmountable deficits – even W somehow managed to sell himself as an “outsider.” [Absence of shame](http://www.vox.com/2016/2/10/10956978/donald-trump-terrifying) is a talent. But not necessarily a rare one. Cruz might have it for example. The more unusual aspect of Trump is that he is a major Republican player who doesn’t owe the party anything. He can burn his bridges without fear or concern. There’s no way to reign him in. His fallback plan isn’t even lobbying. And he doesn’t have any real friends or associates who are politicians. So their opinion doesn’t matter so much to him on a personal level. He also has a disciplined disinterest in policy: he doesn’t read briefing books before debates. Even a little actual knowledge would take him off his game. (Hillary is the opposite of this: she sounds wary when answering questions because of her immersion in policy throughout almost her entire adult life). Replicating Trump involves a studiously superficial knowledge of policy: taking that to Trump’s level might be challenging for a legislator or governor. Historically demagogues tend to burn out. Or so I’ve read. I honestly would like to know more about that process. I’m not really convinced. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-making-wrong-lazy-assumptions-about-trumps-appeal-his-followers/748167.md?page=6)