# Are we "meant" to be herbivores **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 8, 2015, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539 "2015-05-08T09:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/21 "2015-05-08T11:06:07Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, it does not. It says to eat no animals except a handful. Carnivores such as piranhas How many people eat them though? > [@](#): > > or crows are perfectly kosher. > **[Leviticus 11:15 - Clean and Unclean Animals](https://biblehub.com/leviticus/11-15.htm)** > > any kind of raven, In the list of unclean animals “every kind of crow,” - what do you think? Were you wrong? > [@](#): > > Herbivores such as horses or termites are not. There is no prohibition in the Bible against eating carnivores. Examples of herbivores that can’t be eaten doesn’t prove that generally people should avoid eating carnivores. About tools and diet - it was someone’s thoughts off the top of their head. There are dozens of other points but you seem to just to be picking the worst arguments where it would be more convincing if you attacked the stronger arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/22 "2015-05-08T11:08:06Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > So it’s completely fine to eat raw chicken, pork, etc? Well… yeah, actually. Of course, it’s best to eat _non-contaminated_ meat, meat without parasites that comes from healthy animals, but if the meat is fresh/not decayed and the animal was free of parasites and/or communicable diseases… sure. Perfectly OK to eat raw chicken or pork. Freakin’ safer than eating, say, raw tapioca. Consider that while raw meat won’t kill you eating raw tapioca or raw red kidney beans _could_ kill you. Lots of plants contain natural toxins, some of which need processing to be safe to eat. Consider that the major protein sources of vegans - things like legumes, seitan (wheat protein), and the like require considerable processing to be digestible and/or safe to eat. Legumes _require_ cooking to be safe to eat, meat does not. Seitan requires processing grain into flour then further processing beyond that. An all-fruit diet does not contain sufficient protein - that might be one reason our ancestors and animal cousins like chimps eat meat at least occasionally. So any argument that because meat requires cooking and/or tools or processing to eat (which, in fact, it _doesn’t)_ we shouldn’t eat it would also be an argument against eating legumes, nuts, and most other sources of plant protein. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/23 "2015-05-08T11:10:05Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > No I quoted and linked to other people who think we’re “meant” to be herbivores. Your version of my argument is a strawman. Your strawman can easily be disproven… e.g. a dog can eat plants but that doesn’t mean it isn’t meant to eat meat. Which is precisely the point. > [@](#): > > Well that was the purpose of this thread - for people to look at the in depth arguments not just what I explicitly mentioned. If you want people to respond to the arguments on some webpege that you link to but are too lazy to even present, you need to find another message board. Ain’t happening here. In fact i have a vague inkling it’s against the rules. In this forum of this board, you will find that people address the arguments that you present. And they are stupid arguments. > [@](#): > > I’m not really convinced either way at the moment. I wanted this thread to explore the pro-herbivore arguments. The link would argue the case better than I can. Also I haven’t fully read that link so I’m not in a good position to defend it. So you have nothing to present and can’t defend you own position. Great debate. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > So do you think a complete and accurate summary of that big link is “we aren’t meant to eat meat because we can eat plants.”? Like I said the example of dogs destroys that argument. Not interested in reading some random link. Interested in debating actual person. Rapidly losing interets in debating someone who admits they can’t defend their won position > [@](#): > > So it’s completely fine to eat raw chicken, pork, etc? More than it is completely fine to eat raw [lettuce](http://news.nationalpost.com/health/you-dont-make-friends-with-salad-leafy-greens-main-culprit-in-food-poisoning-u-s-study-finds), yes. No food is ever completely safe, but statistically meat is safer to eat raw than vegetables. Some meats, such as chicken, are riskier than other foods, such as cow or shellfish. Just as some plants, such as lettuce or tomato, are much riskier than other foods, such as coconut. Once again, you startiung your argument with absolutist statements that \*all \*meats have to be cooked and \*no \*plants need cooking, and then when presented with evidence, start arguing that some meats don’t need cookig and some plants do. Mate, if you make the ridiculous claim that dogs have three legs, you are just weaseling if you then ask people who flatten the assertion if \*all \*dogs \*always \*have four legs. And when you make the ridiculous claim that meat needs to be cooked to be safe, you are just weaseling if you then ask people who flatten the assertion if \*all \*meat is \*always \*safe to eat raw. You are weaseling and everyone can see it. I have no idea if weasel is safe to eat raw. > [@](#): > > I was asking you about meat not milk in that instance. And I pointed out how asking such a question is special pleading. Do you still beat your wife? > [@](#): > > I don’t want to argue about what I’ve posted… Ok, I’m done with this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/24 "2015-05-08T11:10:48Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > > [@Blake\[/quote](#): > > > > No, it does not. It says to eat no animals except a handful. Carnivores such as piranhas > > How many people eat them though? In their native Amazon? Quite a few. They’re supposed to be quite tasty. Since they’re a readily available fish the natives eat them frequently. Why wouldn’t they? > [@](#): > > About tools and diet - it was someone’s thoughts off the top of their head. There are dozens of other points but you seem to just to be picking the worst arguments where it would be more convincing if you attacked the stronger arguments. As I noted, given the number of plant foods that require cooking/processing/tools it’s a crap argument against meat-eating. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/25 "2015-05-08T11:20:05Z")
Blake: “or crows are perfectly kosher.” > [@JohnClay](#): > > [Leviticus 11:15 any kind of raven,](http://biblehub.com/leviticus/11-15.htm) > In the list of unclean animals “every kind of crow,” - what do you think? Were you wrong? You wrote long posts but conveniently forgot about the above part… > [@](#): > > Ok, I’m done with this nonsense. Good because I find your posts quite frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/26 "2015-05-08T11:38:45Z")
[QUOTE=JohnBlake] Actually the article you quoted [http://www.geek.com/news/geek-answer…-cant-1593883/](http://www.geek.com/news/geek-answers-why-can-animals-eat-raw-meat-but-we-cant-1593883/) said: “A vulture, for instance, eats almost exclusively rotting or semi-rotting food, and as a result has a stomach tuned to sterilizing such hazardous materials. Few parasites can survive the acid bath of a scavenger’s stomach, and the same is true to a lesser extent about most carnivores” [/QUOTE] Vultures (and hyenas, and lycaons, and marabouts etc…) are specifically carrion-eaters. They never hunt or kill, but thrive on eating animals that other carnivores have killed before (and not fully eaten) or that have died of natural causes, which in the wilds typically means disease. In order to fill that specific niche, they have evolved in a specific direction, i.e. by having a digestive system and immune systems that can process rotting meat, or those bits of meat that predators don’t find palatable. Predatory obligate carnivores have less robust systems, because the meat they’ll eat will have relatively fewer parasites and toxins. But they still fall prey to some parasites, like flukes and tapeworms, that an otherwise healthy herbivore can carry. Omnivores have even less robust systems (in that specific direction), because that also allows them to process plants. It’s a matter of relative specialization. Both evolutionary strategies (super specialization vs. jack-of-all-foods) have their advantages and drawbacks. > [@](#): > > “Today, eating some steak tartare is almost entirely safe” - one exception doesn’t disprove it. Yesteryear Inuit people lived primarily on whale, fish, caribou, seal and birds - because as it happens there’s precious little in the way of fleshy fruit in the subarctic. They gathered a little (seaweed, some berries and tubers, one or two specific grasses), but 75%+ of their diet is/was animal fat. They weren’t _super healthy_, but they thrived just fine. The reason humans have spread all over the world, from the tropics to the subarctic, is that we can make do with just about any diet, climate or terrain. We adapt and overcome. > [@](#): > > And incidentally the Bible says not to eat carnivores. First of all no it doesn’t, second of all so what if it did ? > [@](#): > > I think the point is that we tend to rely on tools to eat meats. I mean it would be hard to kill and eat a cow without tools. Cows, sure. Well, the killing part at least - the eating part is fine if you don’t mind getting dirty. Be easy to kill a dog, though, f’r’instance. And dogs are eaten in large swathes of the world. As are rodents, birds and poultry, sheep and goats, insects of all shapes and sizes, many many many species of fish, etc… All of which you can catch, kill and eat without any tools, if you really have to. It’s just easier and more efficient with than without. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure - I’m confused. Yeah, you seem to be :). Well, allow me to elucidate then : no it doesn’t. Plenty of ethnic groups don’t wear shoes, they’re doing fine. Walker monkeys (like gorillas) seem to be doing a’ight, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/27 "2015-05-08T11:45:41Z")
Since the OP has indicated that he doesn’t wish to actually debate the topic… Off to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/28 "2015-05-08T12:04:29Z")
If the first cite for your argument is “[veganforum.com](http://veganforum.com),” then you’ve already lost. What the fuck else do you expect them to say. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/29 "2015-05-08T12:22:16Z")
The conundrum, as pointed out upthread, is that it’s natural for humans to be unnatural. Probably beginning with cooked food. Yes, even meat can be eaten raw, but there’s reason to believe that modern humans were able to evolve brains larger than our ancestors because of the increased nutrition released by cooking food; not just meat but tubers and other plants that when raw are nearly worthless nutritionally. We even have smaller weaker jaws than our evolutionary ancestors, almost certainly the result of eating softer (cooked) food. So unless you define “herbivore” to include something that lives primarily off cooked grains, no we’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/30 "2015-05-08T12:23:55Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > I don’t want to argue about what I’ve posted since I know virtually nothing on this topic. I haven’t even fully read that main link. I’d like you to address that link. If you haven’t bothered to read your own link, why should anyone else? You’ve been given plenty of evidence that humans are not meant to be herbivores, and to continue saying that the evidence given does not address the arguments in the link you haven’t read is, umm . . . disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/31 "2015-05-08T12:44:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > The conundrum, as pointed out upthread, is that it’s natural for humans to be unnatural. Probably beginning with cooked food. Yes, even meat can be eaten raw, but there’s reason to believe that modern humans were able to evolve brains larger than our ancestors because of the increased nutrition released by cooking food; not just meat but tubers and other plants that when raw are nearly worthless nutritionally. We even have smaller weaker jaws than our evolutionary ancestors, almost certainly the result of eating softer (cooked) food. > > So unless you define “herbivore” to include something that lives primarily off cooked grains, no we’re not. I came in to say this. Humans didn’t invent cooking, we evolved in an environment where cooked food already existed, and it’s likely that cooking was a prerequisite for our brains to be able to get as big as they are. I’m pretty sure meat is calorie-dense for the effort involved in getting it, making it a good choice for hunter-gatherers. Also, humans have evolved a gene at least 4 times to be able to digest milk as adults, meaning we’re literally designed to drink cow milk. At least some of us are (sorry Asians) I say this as a vegetarian. I think people should eat a lot less meat, but claims that we’re not _designed_ to eat meat are just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/32 "2015-05-08T12:47:05Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Interesting claim… then why does basically every culture I know of use fire to cook meat? Fires are pretty difficult to light. And why have I been told that meat needs to be cooked “properly”? Meat “needs” to be cooked properly the same way you “need” to wear your seatbelt. It is not essential for everything to function properly, but it is a low cost way of removing a potential threat to your health, so it is wasteful not to use it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/33 "2015-05-08T12:48:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Vultures (and hyenas, and lycaons, and marabouts etc…) are specifically carrion-eaters. They never hunt or kill… I don’t know about the others, but that statement is not true for hyenas. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/34 "2015-05-08T13:07:45Z")
JohnClay’s bodybuilder diet thread followed the exact same pattern. He will start a discussion with absurdly biased cites that go against all accepted facts, and then when people point this out he will then find some outlier example online which he thinks negates overwhelming evidence in some weird form of GOTCHA!. It is almost like he wants others to argue with him. He also doesn’t seem to be able to critically evaluate sources of info, like pointing out pictures of buff dudes on the website of a company selling a fad diet book as proof it works. I’m not trying to attack him here, just giving a heads up. I think he often has an interesting discussion, but goes about it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/35 "2015-05-08T13:14:06Z")
> [@grude](#): > > JohnClay’s bodybuilder diet thread followed the exact same pattern. He will start a discussion with absurdly biased cites that go against all accepted facts, and then when people point this out he will then find some outlier example online which he thinks negates overwhelming evidence in some weird form of GOTCHA!. It is almost like he wants others to argue with him. > > He also doesn’t seem to be able to critically evaluate sources of info, like pointing out pictures of buff dudes on the website of a company selling a fad diet book as proof it works. > > I’m not trying to attack him here, just giving a heads up. I think he often has an interesting discussion, but goes about it wrong. You weren’t around for a thread he had on a magician’s act, where he could not accept that the only plant needed was the one who was “randomly” chosen to perform the actual trick. He seems fundamentally incapable of understanding that people will often lie or exaggerate in entertainment or advertising, or that the parsimonious solution is sometimes that the person making an unusual claim is, in fact, honestly mistaken. Added: If it were not for the fact that he has been consistent in this regard for fourteen years here I would tend to doubt his sincerity. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/36 "2015-05-08T14:01:29Z")
The Master Speaks: [Are humans meat eaters or vegetarians by nature?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/674/are-humans-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-by-nature) [QUOTE=Cecil Adams] There are some intelligent arguments for vegetarianism, but claiming that man is “naturally” herbivorous isn’t one of them. The settled judgment of science is that man is an omnivore, capable of eating both meat and vegetables [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/37 "2015-05-08T14:24:46Z")
I don’t get the eyes argument. You have forward facing eyes if you benefit more from stereoscopic vision than you would from wide field vision. Monkeys have forward facing eyes to help judge which branches to grab when cruising through the jungle canopy. Cats have forward facing eyes to judge how far they need to leap to catch a mouse. Chimpanzees use their forward facing eyes to both climb trees AND ruin the day for some red colobus monkey when they catch and eat it. Likewise, baboons [will hunt](http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-predatory-baboon/) and eat animals with their forward facing eyes that see the same color range as us. All it really says is that your lifestyle found stereoscopic vision useful enough that it became a trait. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/38 "2015-05-08T15:28:59Z")
As a biologist, I’ve seen this argument going around the internet for a while, and I can tell you that it inevitably relies on a bizarre twisting and misinterpretation of biological facts, if not outright lies. The biology is absolutely clear - we’re adapted for an omnivorous lifestyle. These people are like creationists, with cherry-picking and lies standard practice. Which is weird to me, because who cares? You want to be vegan? Go ahead. No one’s stopping you. Why this insistence on “proving” that it’s “natural”? Which is a completely meaningless term anyway. However, given that this is a JohnClay thread, there’s absolutely no point in getting into the details. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/39 "2015-05-08T21:38:09Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > 1. Humans can’t digest cellulose, but neither can any other animal on the planet. How this provides evidence of what any species is meant to eat eludes me. > > 2. Humans do not need cellulose. In fact humans do not need vegetable matter at all. Humans can and have lived perfectly healthy lives by eating nothing but raw animals. We can obtain all the nutrients we need in this manner. Conversely, humans do need meat. While humans can obtain all the vitamins they need from eating animals, they can not obtain all the B vitamins they need from eating plants. So to the extent that what we \*need \*to eat tells us anything about what we are \*meant \*to eat, we are meant to eat animals, not plants. > > Humans are omnivores. We have always been omnivores. We do much better on a pure meat diet than on a pure vegetable diet, but nether diet is optimal. The hunter gatherer diet consists of between 30% and 90% meat by weight and 60% and 100% meat by calorie. Even at the low end, this is much higher than the meat consumed in the typical western diet. To the extent that we are "meant: to eat anything, then we are “meant” to eat a shitload of meat. Of course we are also meant to get off our lazy fat arses and burn off all the calories so consumed. > > What we are meant to do and what is optimal in the modern world are not necessarily the same thing. There are great arguments that vegetarian diet has health benefits for most westerners in 2015. > > . 1. (wiki) _Some animals, particularly ruminants and termites, can digest cellulose with the help of symbiotic micro-organisms that live in their guts, such as Trichonympha._ 2. Even the Eskimo will eat some fruits and stomach contents. I cant think of any peoples that eat just meat and nothing but- some diets are pretty well 99% meat. All in all, a excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539/40 "2015-05-08T21:43:40Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except, of course, for that nasty little requirement for vitamin B12, the only NATURAL source of which is other animals… which implies at least occasional eating of one’s fellow creatures… For a certain definition of "creatures’. Some "vegan’ foods have B12 thru fermenting, and Blue-green algae and spirulina has some. But I dunno if you could call Blue-green algae and spirulina = “food”- they are only consumed as supplements. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-meant-to-be-herbivores/719539.md?page=3)