# Are we moving toward fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927 "2009-08-10T14:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/1 "2009-08-10T14:00:18Z")
A friend sent me a [disturbing article](http://www.truthout.org/080909A) the other day. The author first defines fascism: > [@](#): > > “a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.” then goes on to make the case that while we were on the road to fascism under Bush, signs that we’re just about all the way there have appeared. No it isn’t because of Obama. The author claims democracies turn fascist when a desperate minority realizes it can’t get its way through the democratic process, and resorts to disrupting the democratic process itself. The author argues that the tipping point of fascism occurs when conservative elites sanction a thuggish base to achieve their goals through extra-democratic means. For example, the teabaggers (organized by conservative elites), and the organized efforts to disrupt town hall meetings are the sign that we’re at the deciding moment where the minority is either suppressed or tears down democracy: > [@](#): > > Though the GOP has been humiliated, rejected, and reduced to rump status by a series of epic national catastrophes mostly of its own making, its leadership can’t even imagine governing cooperatively with the newly mobilized and ascendant Democrats. Lacking legitimate routes back to power, their last hope is to invest the hardcore remainder of their base with an undeserved legitimacy, recruit them as shock troops, and overthrow American democracy by force. If they can’t win elections or policy fights, they’re more than willing to take it to the streets, and seize power by bullying Americans into silence and complicity. My question is: is there any merit to the author’s theory, or is it alarmism? It is hard for me to imagine the Republicans taking things so far, but OTOH I’ve been surprised at their churlish negativity… Also- I haven’t been following Truthout, so I don’t have an opinion on whether or not they are a reputable source. Are they? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/2 "2009-08-10T14:04:31Z")
Well, this mob-disruption stuff is scary- but it isn’t _that_ scary. With the 24-hour news cycle and cellphone cameras everywhere, mob political violence can only be harmful to a viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/3 "2009-08-10T14:19:59Z")
Depends on the economy. When the pie really shrinks fascism is one of the plays traditional monied elites in Europe and South America use to avoid sharing. Whether it’s still a practical play is open to question but the USA does seem to have more than its fair share of right-wing no-nothings. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/4 "2009-08-10T14:20:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, this mob-disruption stuff is scary- but it isn’t _that_ scary. With the 24-hour news cycle and cellphone cameras everywhere, mob political violence can only be harmful to a viewpoint. I don’t see that at all. The LEADING media outlets are behind this. This is not fringe any longer. The mobs simply will not believe anything they hear unless it’s from Fox or Limbaugh. No amount of fact checking or reasonable debate will make these people change their mind. Meanwhile, the more the administration fights it the more fuel it gives the mob. I’ve been around a long time and I have never seen anything like it. The anti-war protesters in the 60s never had this much influence. If asked, there will be a million people in Washington to fight any sort of progressive agenda. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the RW equivalent of the Weathermen any minute. Unlike hippys/anti-war types who tended to be outside the mainstream, the new mob goes to the same churches and lives in the same communities as people of more moderate viewpoint. I don’t think they can be so easily marginalized like we were back in the 60s when we were easily identified and dismissed because we had long hair. The only thing I can see that will turn this around is if Bin Laden is captured. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/5 "2009-08-10T14:25:16Z")
It’s amazing. When the left does anything, it’s healthy. When the right shows up to protest massive, poorly-thought-out changes done on a huge sector of the economy, it’s incipient signs of fascism. When the left seeks out public forums and sirupts them, it’s robust democracy. When the right attends open townhalls with questions lefty legistlators can’t honestly answer, it’s fascism. Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/6 "2009-08-10T14:27:31Z")
How prevalent are these teabaggers actually? As a foreigner it seems more like a tempest in a tea pot. Something that’s over when the people participating get bored of being outraged. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/7 "2009-08-10T14:27:49Z")
So people protesting Bush are the very definition of democracy. The highest form of patriotism is protest and dissent, right? The people protesting deficits and national health care are fascism. But what about the “highest form of patriotism” and all that? What happened to that? OK, I get it. When you agree with protesters they are good. When you disagree with them, they are bad, very bad. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/8 "2009-08-10T14:29:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It’s amazing. When the left does anything, it’s healthy. When the right shows up to protest massive, poorly-thought-out changes done on a huge sector of the economy, it’s incipient signs of fascism. When the left seeks out public forums and sirupts them, it’s robust democracy. When the right attends open townhalls with questions lefty legistlators can’t honestly answer, it’s fascism. Who knew? When the left threatens violence and won’t let an anti-illegal immigration person speak, that’s just “no free speech for fascists!”. If the right were to do that it’d be the end of the country. No one is allowed to criticize the Messiah and his ideas. Anyone who does is by definition a jerk, illegitimate (because the Messiah can’t be wrong), and now, officially, a fascist. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/9 "2009-08-10T14:36:36Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > So people protesting Bush are the very definition of democracy. The highest form of patriotism is protest and dissent, right? > > The people protesting deficits and national health care are fascism. But what about the “highest form of patriotism” and all that? What happened to that? > > OK, I get it. When you agree with protesters they are good. When you disagree with them, they are bad, very bad. In some ways I see your point. Everyone has the right (and obligation) to protest. I see a big difference in this because of the way it is being organized by lobbying firrms, and abetted by very large media outlets. The teabag protests were not only covered by Fox, they helped organize them, then used their news division to lie about how many people went to them. Did you ever think that staid, old Wall Street Journal would be owned by the same company that brought tabloid-style news to the US? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/10 "2009-08-10T14:47:12Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It’s amazing. When the left does anything, it’s healthy. When the right shows up to protest massive, poorly-thought-out changes done on a huge sector of the economy, it’s incipient signs of fascism. When the right shows up to deliberately _disrupt_ proceedings, rather than participating in them, perhaps. The majority of the antiwar protesters were sensible. Some, like the ones who tried to block off a Marine Corps recruiting office (in San Francisco?) were not. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/11 "2009-08-10T14:58:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > When the right shows up to deliberately _disrupt_ proceedings, rather than participating in them, perhaps. > > The majority of the antiwar protesters were sensible. Some, like the ones who tried to block off a Marine Corps recruiting office (in San Francisco?) were not. How are they deliberately disrupting anything? Asking questions and registering their disapproval is deliberately disruptive? What about on collegel campuses where conservatives are invited to speak and heckled, shouted down, threatened, etc. and can’t even speak? Is that democracy in action or fascism? Well I guess conservative=fascism so by definition it’s anti-fascism, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/12 "2009-08-10T15:11:04Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > How are they deliberately disrupting anything? Asking questions and registering their disapproval is deliberately disruptive? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11405860&postcount=1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11405860&postcount=1) ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/13 "2009-08-10T15:28:08Z")
[Benito Mussolini (1883-1945)](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html) \*over the course of his lifetime went from Socialism - he was editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper - to the leadership of a new political movement called “fascism” [after “fasces”, the symbol of bound sticks used a totem of power in ancient Rome]. Mussolini came to power after the “March on Rome” in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel. In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism. \* This is the guy who schooled Hitler, Peron and a host other idolators. He taught them all the dirty and brutal tricks, many of which we see being used round the world and not a few by the US itself, to say the least. I think this hits close to home. What do you think.? > [@](#): > > Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of > Pacifism – born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision – the alternative of life or death… > > …The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide: he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, but above all for others – those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after… > > …Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production… Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society… > > After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage… > > …Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of “happiness” and indefinite progress… > > …iven that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority…a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State… > > The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality – thus it may be called the “ethic” State… > > …The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone… > > …For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth century - repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to undertake great experiments of social and political transformation; for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority, of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and died for it. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/14 "2009-08-10T15:33:21Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > A friend sent me a [disturbing article](http://www.truthout.org/080909A) the other day. The author first defines fascism: > snip I don’t think the rest of the country will let that happen. The wingnuts are going to do something stupid and the mushy middle will turn against them. I believe this because of the way the country reacted to Sarah Palin: the more they found out how crazy she was, the more they abandoned her (I’ll look for polling if anyone wants it). This should play out similarly. Undecideds will see folks shouting down politicians, drawing Hitler comparisons, and generally being idiots, and they’ll run away. I don’t think you can have a fascist coup without the middle either supporting or at least not opposing. The center may not come to the liberal Dems, but it won’t go anywhere near the crazies\*. \*- Really, I think the situation is ideal for the Blue Dogs and moderate Republicans. They may not formally start a new party, but they could end up teaming up to have a center-right coalition. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/15 "2009-08-10T15:34:19Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > How are they deliberately disrupting anything? Asking questions and registering their disapproval is deliberately disruptive? Asking questions is not fascist. Shouting down the congressperson hosting the townhall, or others trying to express themselves rationally is fascist. Do you not see the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/16 "2009-08-10T15:36:47Z")
These mass protesters, aside from issuing at least one death threat, are preventing discussion at all. IMHO, the reason the health bill is poorly thought out is because of what happened when a well thought out bill was presented to congress in 1993. Leaving that all aside, check out this column from yesterday’s New York Times: [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/opinion/09ehrenreich.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/opinion/09ehrenreich.html). What Barbara Ehrenreich is saying is that increasingly communitities are making homelessness illegal, resulting in jail time. In some cases billing them for upkeep and then putting them in jail again for non-payment, putting them on a treadmill from which they cannot possibly escape. I don’t know if that satisfies the definition of fascism (a word that is thrown around rather freely), but it is highly unfriendly. Generally, psople spend entirely too much time minding other people’s business. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/17 "2009-08-10T15:38:06Z")
It’s not tea baggers who are getting arrested for causing trouble. If there’s any fascism going on it’s the use of unions as brown shirts to intimidate and attack people who do nothing but ask questions at meetings or pass out literature. Not only is this behavior not being investigated, it’s being marginalized by the MSM with quotes from Nancy Pelosi. It’s ironic that her statements about protestors carrying swastikas went unchallenged but when union thugs get arrested at a political rally for assault it gets almost no mention and zero follow-up. This was ORGANIZED union behavior at a political rally. This followed instructions from the White House to Democrats to “punch back twice as hard”. While nobody thinks this was meant literally it is disturbing to hear this kind of rhetoric in response to citizens who speak their mind. Add to that an official government website to turn people in who disagree with Obama’s health plan and you have the mindset of a leader who thinks we are accountable to his desires. Right now Geitner is asking Congress to increase the national debt limit and Pelosi’s response to this money crisis is to double the request for government VIP jets. All the tea-baggers want is for their representatives to spend their tax money wisely and for this Nancy calls them un-American. I’m appalled by her behavior, A party that uses unions as muscle, and a President who thinks any opposition needs to be reported to government officials. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/18 "2009-08-10T15:56:57Z")
Interestingly, in the [Political Compass threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=248133&page=2) some years ago, I asked our friend **Brutus** whether he would be comfortable with the label ‘fascist’. He replied that yes, he felt that strongly right-wing, authoritarian government would be best for America, but rejected the anti-democratic and violent connotations of such a term. If these teabaggers (is this epithet the result of something like Dan Savage’s quest to define “Santorum”?) suggested that the US is moving towards _socialism_, would you accept the term bestowed upon you by your opponents or reject it because you _know_ they will accuse you of admiring Stalin? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/19 "2009-08-10T16:07:22Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > If these teabaggers … suggested that the US is moving towards _socialism_, would you accept the term bestowed upon you by your opponents or reject it because you _know_ they will accuse you of admiring Stalin? I would reject it because it suggests we are not a socialist country now. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/20 "2009-08-10T16:16:28Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > “a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.” That pretty much sums the current GOP up, doesn’t it? That’s them in a nutshell really. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=2)