# Are we moving toward fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927 "2009-08-10T14:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/21 "2009-08-10T16:21:47Z")
Firstly, I think the word ‘fascist’ is bandied about far too much and slapped on everything that leaves a bad taste in the opposing side’s mouths. This weakens the term and increases the likelihood that the use of the term will be met with :rolleyes: even when it is legitimately being used. From my point of view, everything conservatives do, from moderate to neo- to paleo-, is generally not fascist. That doesn’t mean it can’t be nasty, socially and politically backwards, and not deserving of the loudest vocal opposition that can be mustered. On the other hand, I think there are people who occupy prominent positions in the media and politics who have a very good potential of becoming fascists should the shit hit the proverbial fan. (I share a birthday and an alma mater with one of them.) Fascism really only comes out as a force in situations where, politically and economically, society is falling apart at the seams, and revolutionary elements are presenting a real challenge to the old order but are not fully organized to realize that challenge, and the old order does not feel confident enough to meet and eliminate that challenge without further eroding its precarious position at the top. Germany and Italy both had these periods of intense radical, quasi-revolutionary challenge, and in both cases the fascists stepped up to offer their services and were gladly taken on (King Victor Emmanuel appointing Mussolini PM, Hindenburg appointing Hitler Reich Chancellor after a decade of the Nazis working on the ground). In neither case were they a part of the system but began their work from the outside. The eight years of George W. Bush’s presidency were not fascist. Nor did they move the country towards fascism. (A lot of the last forty years have seen the growth of a police state in the US, but that is not the same thing.) The country is not in the same sort of political crisis that Germany and Italy were in the 1920s and 1930s (although absence of real economic recovery would go a long way towards provoking one) and therefore there is no precarious balance of power for the fascists to tilt. There are, of course, fascist organizations out there. They’re active. They’re not the “Tea Party” idiots and Palinite bigots; they’re genuine Nazis. Fortunately, they’re still on the margins of society. They are a danger that needs to be taken into consideration and opposed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/22 "2009-08-10T16:30:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not tea baggers who are getting arrested for causing trouble. If there’s any fascism going on it’s the use of unions as brown shirts to intimidate and attack people who do nothing but ask questions at meetings or pass out literature. Not only is this behavior not being investigated, it’s being marginalized by the MSM with quotes from Nancy Pelosi. It’s ironic that her statements about protestors carrying swastikas went unchallenged but when union thugs get arrested at a political rally for assault it gets almost no mention and zero follow-up. This was ORGANIZED union behavior at a political rally. This followed instructions from the White House to Democrats to “punch back twice as hard”. While nobody thinks this was meant literally it is disturbing to hear this kind of rhetoric in response to citizens who speak their mind. Add to that an official government website to turn people in who disagree with Obama’s health plan and you have the mindset of a leader who thinks we are accountable to his desires. I don’t suppose asking for citations would do any good, would it? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/23 "2009-08-10T16:41:18Z")
_Fascism in America will arrive on an anti-Fascist platform._ – Huey Long The District Attorney of the United States recently dropped charges of voter intimidation against two Black Panthers who harassed and threatened white voters at a polling place. Meanwhile, a young white man who displayed a noose to demonstrators in Jena is doing hard time. Sure, fascism may be coming to America soon. But it won’t be the kind of fascism the OP had in mind. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/24 "2009-08-10T16:44:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t suppose asking for citations would do any good, would it? Maybe [Kenneth Gladney and the SEIU?](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_08/019423.php) I’m with Steve Benen’s take on the situation, though. Dude’s hamming it up for his 15 minutes. On the other hand, [there’s the incident in Tampa, Florida,](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/08/florida_town_hall_turns_into_v.html) when wingers were ready to beat down the doors and windows because the place had reached capacity. Not to mention the ugliness and shouting _inside_ the place. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/25 "2009-08-10T16:44:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not tea baggers who are getting arrested for causing trouble. If there’s any fascism going on it’s the use of unions as brown shirts to intimidate and attack people who do nothing but ask questions at meetings or pass out literature. Not only is this behavior not being investigated, it’s being marginalized by the MSM with quotes from Nancy Pelosi. It’s ironic that her statements about protestors carrying swastikas went unchallenged but when union thugs get arrested at a political rally for assault it gets almost no mention and zero follow-up. This was ORGANIZED union behavior at a political rally. This followed instructions from the White House to Democrats to “punch back twice as hard”. While nobody thinks this was meant literally it is disturbing to hear this kind of rhetoric in response to citizens who speak their mind. Add to that an official government website to turn people in who disagree with Obama’s health plan and you have the mindset of a leader who thinks we are accountable to his desires. > > Right now Geitner is asking Congress to increase the national debt limit and Pelosi’s response > to this money crisis is to double the request for government VIP jets. All the tea-baggers want is for their representatives to spend their tax money wisely and for this Nancy calls them un-American. I’m appalled by her behavior, A party that uses unions as muscle, and a President who thinks any opposition needs to be reported to government officials. You appear to have been misinformed. The right is specifically organizing and instructing these people to scream and disrupt the proceedings. [Cite](http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/townhallactionmemo.pdf). (PDF) This is because the right can’t win on the merits, they’re wrong about healthcare and only by outright lying to people can they drum up the outrage they need to disrupt the process. Death panels, bureaucrats, and Hitler are stupid lies propagated by the right, including members of congress and people with a national platform. And the administration website you mention isn’t to turn in people. It is to have a list of the lies that Republicans and their drones are telling so the administration can actually inform people. Maybe if something outrages you, you could take a couple of minutes to find out if the person who told you about it was lying or not. Doesn’t that seem like what a rational person would do? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/26 "2009-08-10T16:45:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Add to that an official government website to turn people in who disagree with Obama’s health plan and you have the mindset of a leader who thinks we are accountable to his desires. There isn’t a whole website devoted to this. There is one entry in a blog at the White House site. I don’t have the link immediately available, but it seemed to me that the blogger was simply asking people to let them know what kind of misinformation is out there so that they can prepare responses to it. They’re not asking for names or personal information. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/27 "2009-08-10T16:50:59Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > The District Attorney of the United States recently dropped charges of voter intimidation against two Black Panthers who harassed and threatened white voters at a polling place. Meanwhile, a young white man who displayed a noose to demonstrators in Jena is doing hard time. Black men exonerated, white man jailed. Must have been racism! It’s not as if we send other black men to jail every day, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/28 "2009-08-10T17:01:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Black men exonerated, white man jailed. Only in the same sense OJ Simpson was exonerated. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not as if we send other black men to jail every day, or anything. The problem there is black lawlessness and violence, not white racism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/29 "2009-08-10T18:32:51Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The author claims democracies turn fascist when a desperate minority realizes it can’t get its way through the democratic process, and resorts to disrupting the democratic process itself. No, a democracy turns fascist when a desperate minority tries that and **wins.** Not gonna happen here. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/30 "2009-08-10T18:46:16Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > There isn’t a whole website devoted to this. There is one entry in a blog at the White House site. I don’t have the link immediately available, but it seemed to me that the blogger was simply asking people to let them know what kind of misinformation is out there so that they can prepare responses to it. They’re not asking for names or personal information. It is a government web site where people are asked to forward electronic mail so governement employees can scrutinize it. The White House is asking for people to turn in emails that aren’t in line with the President’s policy. Seems personal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/31 "2009-08-10T18:59:41Z")
You forget that Comrade Palin exposed the nefarious plans of Der Reichsführer Rahm Emanuel and the Supreme Overlord Obama and their Death Camps of medicine. Her saving us from the death camps should at least buy us a decade or so from the evils of the Fascists. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/32 "2009-08-10T19:21:29Z")
Interesting, **Magiver** , would you agree that one of the prime methods for spreading disinformation in the USA is through chain mail? I’m not American but from the amount of pit threads they’ve generated it seems to be a issue for a lot of people. What do you think is an appropriate way for a government to a) Find out what people are saying about their policies b) correct wrong and hurtful information? I think its disingenuous to try and claim that anyone in the Whitehouse cares about private email correspondence. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/33 "2009-08-10T20:02:00Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Only in the same sense OJ Simpson was exonerated. The problem there is black lawlessness and violence, not white racism. Even after a decade, you guys have not stopped hanging off OJ Simpson’s curly, black scrotum hairs. Yes, he brutally murdered those white people and got away with it. So what. What’s curious is that I’m sure not one person here shed a shred of outrage for Rodney King, Malice Green, or Robert Davis and the exoneration of the police officers that beat them to a pulp - **on camera**. Far as I’m concerned, the mournful wails of Goldman family can add to to the chorus of minorities who, since their arrival on these shores four hundred years ago, have been bitch-slapped by the justice system and ground to dust by law enforcement, while whites looked on in mild indifference or detatched amazement. Sad to say it, but maybe we need more OJ’s so that whites can see just how unfair the justice system is and how it needs to be reformed from the ground up. Money and power should never tip the scales of justice nor should it untie the cloth folding around her eyes. The sooner this occurs, if it can indeed happen, the U.S will have taken a significant step in unearthing the convenent in the Constutition to “insure domestic Tranquility” for all. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/34 "2009-08-10T20:34:02Z")
> [@Sri\_Theo](#): > > Interesting, **Magiver** , would you agree that one of the prime methods for spreading disinformation in the USA is through chain mail? I’m not American but from the amount of pit threads they’ve generated it seems to be a issue for a lot of people. > > What do you think is an appropriate way for a government to a) Find out what people are saying about their policies b) correct wrong and hurtful information? > > I think its disingenuous to try and claim that anyone in the Whitehouse cares about private email correspondence. I don’t give a rats fucking ass what you think. However, the President does. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/35 "2009-08-10T20:57:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t give a rats fucking ass what you think. And to think, they said oratory was dead! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/36 "2009-08-10T21:16:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t give a rats fucking ass what you think. However, the President does. So, the President doesn’t only want to hear people agree with him, but actually wants to find out what people who disagree say? Oh the horror. After 8 years of Bush, I can see why you’d think this was unAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/37 "2009-08-10T22:21:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, the President doesn’t only want to hear people agree with him, but actually wants to find out what people who disagree say? Oh the horror. After 8 years of Bush, I can see why you’d think this was unAmerican. Uh huh. You would have been fine if Bush had a narc web site? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/38 "2009-08-10T22:23:53Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The author argues that the tipping point of fascism occurs when conservative elites sanction a thuggish base to achieve their goals through extra-democratic means. > > For example, the teabaggers (organized by conservative elites), and the organized efforts to disrupt town hall meetings are the sign that we’re at the deciding moment where the minority is either suppressed or tears down democracy: Meh. There’s a BIG difference between disrupting town hall meetings with noisy blowhards and disrupting town hall meetings with armed paramilitary groups. Not all “extra-democratic means” are the same. > [@](#): > > My question is: is there any merit to the author’s theory, or is it alarmism? I vote for alarmism. I think it’s desperation, pettiness, and bad form on the GOP tea party types, but not a step toward fascism. This too shall pass. The tactic will still be in the Dirty Tricks Playbook from now on, but in 6 mos. to a year, it won’t be used as vigorously/frequently as it is being used now. ---
**Author:** ![Sri\_Theo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Sri\_Theo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sri_Theo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/39 "2009-08-10T22:29:27Z")
You should be glad your President cares what you think. The important question is what he does about it. If he responds with words, information and legislation that does not equal fascism, if he responds with police action, intimidation and silencing free speech that’s fascism. And I’d like to see the web site if anyone has a link. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/40 "2009-08-10T22:51:45Z")
> [@Sri\_Theo](#): > > You should be glad your President cares what you think. > > The important question is what he does about it. If he responds with words, information and legislation that does not equal fascism, if he responds with police action, intimidation and silencing free speech that’s fascism. > > And I’d like to see the web site if anyone has a link. [Is this the page you’re looking for?](http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/) That’s sort of a debunking project, while [http://www.healthreform.gov/](http://www.healthreform.gov/) is more of the information depot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=3)