# Are we moving toward fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927 "2009-08-10T14:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/61 "2009-08-11T20:17:35Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Fascism is a political philosophy that supports an alliance between a strong central government and political alliances between government and large corporations. :rolleyes: **But not the only such.** Another is neoliberalism, which is not fascist in any sense. From [“Can Obama Be Deprogrammed?”](http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2009/can_obama_be_deprogrammed_16466) by Michael Lind: > [@](#): > > Boy, do we need deprogrammers now, to liberate Barack Obama from the cult of neoliberalism. > > By neoliberalism I mean the ideology that replaced New Deal liberalism as the dominant force in the Democratic Party between the Carter and Clinton presidencies. In the Clinton years, this was called the “Third Way.” The term was misleading, because New Deal liberalism between 1932 and 1968 and its equivalents in social democratic Europe were considered the original “third way” between democratic socialism and libertarian capitalism, whose failure had caused the Depression. According to New Deal liberals, the United States was not a “capitalist society” or a “market democracy” but rather a democratic republic with a “mixed economy,” in which the state provided both social insurance and infrastructure like electric grids, hydropower and highways, while the private sector engaged in mass production. > > When it came to the private sector, the New Dealers, with some exceptions, approved of Big Business, Big Unions and Big Government, which formed the system of checks and balances that John Kenneth Galbraith called “countervailing power.” But most New Dealers dreaded and distrusted bankers. They thought that finance should be strictly regulated and subordinated to the real economy of factories and home ownership. They were economic internationalists because they wanted to open foreign markets to U.S. factory products, not because they hoped that the Asian masses some day would pay high overdraft fees to U.S. multinational banks. > > \ > > The “stagflation” of the 1970s had multiple sources, including the oil price shock following the Arab oil embargo in 1973 and the revival of German and Japanese industrial competition (China was still recovering from the damage done by Mao). During the previous generation, libertarian conservatives like Milton Friedman had been marginalized. But in the 1970s they gained a wider audience, blaming the New Deal model and claiming that the answer to every question (before the question was even asked) was “the market.” > > The free-market fundamentalists found an audience among Democrats as well as Republicans. A growing number of Democratic economists and economic policymakers were attracted to the revival of free-market economics, among them Obama’s chief economic advisor Larry Summers, a professed admirer of Milton Friedman. These center-right Democrats agreed with the libertarians that the New Deal approach to the economy had been too interventionist. At the same time, they thought that government had a role in providing a safety net. The result was what came to be called “neoliberalism” in the 1980s and 1990s – a synthesis of conservative free-market economics with “progressive” welfare-state redistribution for the losers. Its institutional base was the Democratic Leadership Council, headed by Bill Clinton and Al Gore, and the affiliated Progressive Policy Institute. ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/62 "2009-08-11T20:21:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Please do look for polling - the last I heard, Palin was the most popular female politician on the national scene - much more so than Pelosi or Reid, both of whom were lower in their approval ratings than Palin. Or Bush, for that matter. > > Regards, > Shodan [This is from mid September '08.](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/09/18/is-sarah-palins-star-beginning-to-fall.html) It talks about her numbers falling already. [This is from post-election polling.](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/07/palin-polarizer.html) It mostly discusses favorable/unfavorable in different groups [Here is a collection from Pollster](http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/fav-palin.php?xml=/flashcharts/content/xml/USPalinFav.xml&choices=Unfavorable,Favorable,Neutral&phone=&ivr=&internet=&mail=&smoothing=&from_date=2008-07-01&to_date=&min_pct=&max_pct=&grid=&points=&trends=&lines=) covering the end of the Republican Convention to now. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/63 "2009-08-11T20:52:18Z")
Yeah it looks like Palin is above Pelosi but below Boxer and Feinstein? I mean, Palin has a lot more data for her and she’s more visible, but still… interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/64 "2009-08-11T21:25:22Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Fascism is a political philosophy that supports an alliance between a strong central government and political alliances between government and large corporations. > > And now, I give you [Robert Reich](http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009/08/white-houses-deal-with-big-pharma.html), SecLabor under Clinton:Reich, as a Democrat and UHC supporter, prefers to blame Big Pharma for subverting democracy, but I would take his argument a step further. The Obama administration is engaged in pushing forward a highly ambitious but controversial agenda, from universal healthcare to climate change legislation. In each case, rather than governing from the center, his aims are as far from the center, as _im_moderate, as he thinks he can get away with - and as a result, he runs into heavy opposition making it a coin flip whether the bills will pass or not. > > So far, so good, plenty of presidents do this. BUT, what he now does, instead of trying to convince the American people that his way is the best, is go to all the relevant special interests and start cutting deals. In exchange for their support, he will give them a hand in shaping the bills. If they oppose him, then they get no skin in the game. Now this is lobbying on steroids - _mandatory lobbying_! It’s a highly hypocritical move for a politician who bloviated during the campaign about opposing special interests in Washington, and a disturbing trend for democracy. Given the large majority in support of health care reform, Obama trying to get it is hardly not governing from the center. Including companies who are going to be affected by the decision in the discussion is hardly giving in to lobbying. Clearly those who think Medicare is socialism on one side and who think any private insurance is dreadful on the other will find any compromise a sellout. But Clinton didn’t include all these groups, and see what happened. It’s not like we didn’t know Obama was a pragmatist during the campaign, after all. BTW, if you worry about government and industry getting into bed with one another, I give you the defense industry. It’s a little late to be worrying about this kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/65 "2009-08-11T21:51:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Given the large majority in support of health care reform, Obama trying to get it is hardly not governing from the center. Actually, Americans [oppose](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low)Obamacare by a 9-point margin. > [@](#): > > Public support for the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low as just **42%** of U.S. voters now favor the plan. That’s down five points from two weeks ago and down eight points from six weeks ago. > > A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that opposition to the plan has increased to **53%** , up nine points since late June. > > More significantly, **44%** of voters strongly oppose the health care reform effort versus **26%** who strongly favor it. Intensity has been stronger among opponents of the plan since the debate began… > > Most notable, however, is the opposition among voters not affiliated with either party. Sixty-two percent (62%) of unaffiliated voters oppose the health care plan, and **51% are strongly opposed**. This marks an uptick in strong opposition among both Republicans and unaffiliateds, while the number of strongly supportive Democrats is unchanged. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/66 "2009-08-11T21:53:38Z")
Whoops, that’s an 11-point margin. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/67 "2009-08-11T21:53:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Please do look for polling - the last I heard, Palin was the most popular female politician on the national scene - much more so than Pelosi or Reid, both of whom were lower in their approval ratings than Palin. That’s because these people actually have jobs. If your job is to work miracles, then of course people are going to disapprove of your inability to do so. Sarah Palin’s job is to go around and look pretty and wink a lot. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/68 "2009-08-11T21:57:21Z")
> [@Burton](#): > > I understand the points raised in the OP and have had similar thoughts. I’ve also thought that in some ways criticism of the health care backlash does look wrong. However, there are dissimilarities, liberal adults do not really engage in the same type behavior. (maybe PETA does) but generally I think mainstream liberal adults would rather have conversations and information than seek to disrupt and act as a herd of unthinking cattle. Right. Comparing college kids on the left with town hall disruptors on the right ignores the fact that the latter are supposedly mature adults. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/69 "2009-08-12T00:52:45Z")
One feature of the US system is that an organized plurality can gain nigh-total _federal_ power more easily than in, say, the Weimar system. This is supposed to be checked by power-sharing with the states; it may be somewhat impeded by the professional civil service; but it’s there. In recent years, we, or rather the GOP, had what fascists work really hard to achieve–without having to stomp anyone’s head in. Uprising & intimidation were sublimated through non-violent processes. But the recourse to violence has happened in the USA’s past; the end of Reconstruction was bloody coup & extermination of the lawfully elected. Could it happen? Eh. Speaking as a student of fascist uprising & as someone disgusted with the endemic corruption in D.C., I confess the militarist will to power is a tempting path (though myself, I would be seeking other ends than the tax protestors & nativists). But the professional military, & retired military, & general populace in this country, are not at this time going to stand for that kind of thing–at least not most places. Any state or region that could get it going would probably get smacked down by the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/70 "2009-08-12T01:23:28Z")
The United States lacks an important precursor to fascism - we don’t have any authoritarian history. Fascists like Hitler or Mussolini or Franco could point back to a period in the past when there was no democracy and the nation was strong and then equate these two factors. But no fascist wannabe can do that in America. Our history as a democracy goes all the way back to the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/71 "2009-08-12T03:05:27Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Actually, Americans [oppose](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low)Obamacare by a 9-point margin. Which only says that they don’t like this specific plan, not that they’re against reform. Hell, I don’t like this specific plan, but I’m still a major fan of health care reform. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/72 "2009-08-12T03:10:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The United States lacks an important precursor to fascism - we don’t have any authoritarian history. Fascists like Hitler or Mussolini or Franco could point back to a period in the past when there was no democracy and the nation was strong and then equate these two factors. Mussolini couldn’t. At least, not without going all the way back to the Roman Empire, and, rhetoric aside, I can’t believe any Italian really would have taken that seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/73 "2009-08-12T03:54:09Z")
Thanks 'Dope for such a great answer! 🙂 > [@spoke-](#): > > The funny thing about the current set of disruptive thugs showing up at town hall meetings is that they are mostly gray-headed geezers, unlike the 1920s variant. Geriatric fascists don’t worry me so much. 🙂 Yah, you’re right, me neither. It is one of the holes in the article IMHO: > [@](#): > > The Italian Squadristi and the German Brownshirts made their bones breaking up farmers’ strikes. And these days, GOP-sanctioned anti-immigrant groups make life hell for Hispanic agricultural workers in the US. As violence against random Hispanics (citizens and otherwise) increases, the right-wing goon squads are getting basic training that, if the pattern holds, they may eventually use to intimidate the rest of us. I can’t say I’ve heard reports of rampant violence against Hispanics- am I just sheltered or what? If someone can cite a lot of violence against Hispanics, I’ll be more worried about fascism. Regarding these ‘right wing goon-squads’: > [@](#): > > They have explicitly deputized them and empowered them to act as their enforcement arm on America’s streets, sanctioning the physical harassment and intimidation of workers, liberals, and public officials who won’t do their political or economic bidding. I can’t say that I’m spending any time being physically harassed by these guys. Can’t say I’m losing sleep over the possibility of a geezer attack. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/74 "2009-08-12T04:36:40Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I can’t say I’ve heard reports of rampant violence against Hispanics- am I just sheltered or what? If someone can cite a lot of violence against Hispanics, I’ll be more worried about fascism. Not likely, at least here in the PNW. Most of those conservatives are the farmers who are employing the Hispanic workers. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/75 "2009-08-12T06:33:52Z")
I think that if American citizens were fully acquainted with the plan as it is now and were given a choice between that plan and continuing to pay for many uninsured sick or injured people who go to emergency rooms by paying higher medical costs themselves anyway, I think that they might consider the more reasonable Health Care Plan. And just to clear up a few misconceptions: 1. There is no “death panel.” There is nothing in the plan that will encourage older people to die in order to save the plan money. This is a lie that is being perpetuated by extremists who are looking out for their own interests. They are targeting people who are gullible. 2. The plan will not pay for abortions. There is a law against that. 3. You will still be able to choose your own doctor. 4. The Health Care Plan does not mean that we are becoming a Socialist government. We also share the costs of schools, libraries, highways, police forces, and fire departments. They haven’t made us Socialists either. > [@](#): > > **Magiver** : It is a government web site where people are asked to forward electronic mail so governement employees can scrutinize it. The White House is asking for people to turn in emails that aren’t in line with the President’s policy. Seems personal to me. > [@](#): > > **Sri Theo** : And I’d like to see the web site if anyone has a link. Notice that **Magiver** not only did not provide a link, he did not say how he found out about the link and he did not say that he has even seen the link! If the President really had such a linked website, you would think that he would make it known to the general public and not keep it a secret. > [@](#): > > **Magiver** : This followed instructions from the White House to Democrats to “punch back twice as hard”. While nobody thinks this was meant literally it is disturbing to hear this kind of rhetoric in response to citizens who speak their mind. Why would you or other citizens be disturbed by figurative language? > [@](#): > > **Magiver** : If there’s any fascism going on it’s the use of unions as brown shirts to intimidate and attack people who do nothing but ask questions at meetings or pass out literature. I believe your statement mistakenly suggests similarities between some claimed recent use of union members in the United States and the Brownshirts of Nazi Germany. Until you make plain these similarities, I must assume that you exaggerated for effect and did not intend to imply that union members were organized into death squads. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/76 "2009-08-12T14:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Mussolini couldn’t. At least, not without going all the way back to the Roman Empire, and, rhetoric aside, I can’t believe any Italian really would have taken that seriously. Mussolini openly and repeatedly compared his regime to the classical Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/77 "2009-08-12T14:53:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Mussolini openly and repeatedly compared his regime to the classical Roman Empire. So he did, but I don’t believe that could possibly have resonated with the Italian people the way Hitler’s “Third Reich” resonated with the German people by evoking Bismarck’s strong-and-authoritarian German Empire, which most living Germans actually remembered. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/78 "2009-08-12T15:09:44Z")
I don’t think the Nazis were all that enamored with the Deutsches Reich era. As you point out, it was the recent past - probably too recent. If the Nazis glorified that era and talked about restoring Germany to it, somebody would probably have pointed out that the Kaiser was still alive and living in the Netherlands. Besides the Deutsches Reich had its downsides as far as the Nazis were concerned. It had been a democracy for one, albeit one with an authoritarian streak, and the Nazis weren’t going to glorify a democracy. More importantly, people had lived throught the collapse of the Deutsches Reich - the Nazis weren’t going to compare themselves to a regime that had lost a war. So when the Nazis talked about the golden era of the past, they were more likely to invoke Siegfried and the Nibelungenlied. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/79 "2009-08-12T15:19:50Z")
> [@MeDrewNotYou](#): > > [This is from mid September '08.](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/09/18/is-sarah-palins-star-beginning-to-fall.html) It talks about her numbers falling already. > > [This is from post-election polling.](http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/07/palin-polarizer.html) It mostly discusses favorable/unfavorable in different groups > > [Here is a collection from Pollster](http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/fav-palin.php?xml=/flashcharts/content/xml/USPalinFav.xml&choices=Unfavorable,Favorable,Neutral&phone=&ivr=&internet=&mail=&smoothing=&from_date=2008-07-01&to_date=&min_pct=&max_pct=&grid=&points=&trends=&lines=) covering the end of the Republican Convention to now. [This one](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1163044.html) is from a few days ago, and it is pretty far from the country “abandoning her” . > [@sqweels](#): > > That’s because these people actually have jobs. Interesting that Bush at his lowest out-polled both Pelosi and Reid, then. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/80 "2009-08-12T15:24:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So when the Nazis talked about the golden era of the past, they were more likely to invoke Siegfried and the Nibelungenlied. Well, the first party that promises to restore Britain to the glorious era of Gondolin and the Silmarils can certainly count on my vote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=5)