# Are we moving toward fascism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927 "2009-08-10T14:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/101 "2009-09-13T20:00:38Z")
Obama has the mandate. The loonies know that and from the moment he took office they were screaming their noise like children frustrated because they know there is nothing they can do for four years. Obama should press on before his massive support feels him wavering. He should have devised a plan in place ready to go before he took office. The US has always been close to fascism. It generally has a very high regard for militarisation and conformity, and corporate enterprises easily hold its government to ransom. The recent bail-out has placed very few controls on what the bailed-out do with public money and they appear ready to go on doing what they have done with other people’s money before - stuff it in their own accounts. Under Socialism, government controls corporations for public benefit, under Fascism, corporations control government for corporate benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/102 "2009-09-13T21:15:01Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > There won’t be a public option because the Democrats don’t want it. They’re in the majority, you know, and can do anything they want. Ahahaha. Yeah, Harry Reid is some tyrant, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/103 "2009-09-17T04:34:40Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I don’t think we are at a big risk of fascism right now. I think we are at risk of right wing terrorism and right wing violence, but not a fascist takeover of the US government. > For one thing, fascist government seem to need a huge pool of young, angry men who have military training. The fascists in Italy and Germany had unemployed soldiers from WW1 who would do their bidding. In the US we do not have that. In fascist Italy of the 20s and 30s, you had young men with military training. In the US most of the wingnuts who endorse assassination and terrorism are over 60 and probably have no military training whatsoever. Fair enough. But I don’t think a German-style jackboot state is required for a fascism. It is more about hijacking the democratic process as I understand it. Lawrence Britt identified [14 characteristics of fascism](http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html). Some to do with business: > [@](#): > > **Controlled Mass Media** > Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. > **Corporate Power is Protected** > The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. > **Labor Power is Suppressed** > Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed . > \*\* Rampant Cronyism and Corruption\*\* > Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. Not a perfect fit, sure. Anyway, I don’t think I’m prepared to take the position that we _are_ fascist, though I think some of the elements are there and some recent developments are disturbing. I’m still trying to sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/104 "2009-09-17T05:00:53Z")
> [@Jerseyman](#): > > The US has always been close to fascism. It generally has a very high regard for militarisation and conformity, and corporate enterprises easily hold its government to ransom. But, that’s not fascism, that’s more like traditionalist-authoritarianism, as in Franco’s Spain or Pinochet’s Chile. (Fascism requires a lot more imagination. [Here’s](http://www.johnreilly.info/fah.htm) a good source on that.) ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/105 "2009-09-17T05:28:47Z")
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] Lawrence Britt identified 14 characteristics of fascism. Some to do with business: [/QUOTE] The factors cited, though, could just as easily have been applied to Gilded Age and turn of the 20th century America. And just something from way back on the first page that bugged me: > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > _Fascism in America will arrive on an anti-Fascist platform._ – Huey Long > > The District Attorney of the United States recently dropped charges of voter intimidation against two Black Panthers who harassed and threatened white voters at a polling place. Meanwhile, a young white man who displayed a noose to demonstrators in Jena is doing hard time. There is no district attorney of the U.S. That’s like saying there’s a police chief of the United States. Using the right terminology is key to credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/106 "2009-09-17T13:24:17Z")
I don’t think **Lonesome Polecat** and credibility have been in the same zip code in years. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/107 "2009-09-17T13:35:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Most of it has been repealed piecemeal by the courts, and the roving wiretap bit in Title II will end on December 31, 2009. The Obama administration has pledged not to renew it. Ha! You must be thinking of Campaign Obama because President Obama took a good long look at the Patriot Act, and decide he liked what he saw: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap\_on\_go\_ca\_st\_pe/us\_patriot\_act](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_patriot_act) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/108 "2009-09-17T13:46:11Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > There is no district attorney of the U.S. That’s like saying there’s a police chief of the United States. Using the right terminology is key to credibility. Okay, Attorney General. Happy now? A mere slip of the tongue, and it does nothing to refute the fact I presented. This whole thread is so amusing, mainly because I hear a lot of right wingers squawking about concentration camps being set up for Obama’s plans to suspend the Constitution and take over the country. Seems they’re planning to use the swine flu as a cover for setting up a Stalinist state. That one ain’t gonna happen, either. We need a lot less drama from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/109 "2009-09-17T14:11:58Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Ha! You must be thinking of Campaign Obama because President Obama took a good long look at the Patriot Act, and decide he liked what he saw: > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap\_on\_go\_ca\_st\_pe/us\_patriot\_act](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_patriot_act) That article doesn’t actually say anything about which parts he likes, although I have to admit I’m not thrilled that he likes any of it. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/110 "2009-09-17T15:57:32Z")
I like to play around with the definition of “fascism”. I think it’s pretty unlikely that the US will become a fascist state with all the familiar trappings, but in a mild sense, fascism can be something as simple as “political bullying”. To use force or intimidation or damning denunciations or other heavy-handed tactics to silence your opposition can be regarded as behaving in a fascist-esque manner. Years ago I read about an incident where a campus newspaper was set to publish a conservative counterpoint to a racial issue, but in the early morning hours a group of black students siezed and destroyed the paper’s entire run. This act was subsequently described as fascist. The idea of the nation as a religion could also be considered fascism, such as if the nation is regarded as infallible as though it were God, or if national symmbols are worshipped as sacred. So a law against flag desecration might be regarded as a tiny example of fascism. I’ve described the extreme backlast to the Dixie Chicks’ remarks about Bush as a form of fascism. As obsessed as fascists are with fighting external enemies, they’re at least as obsessed with “disloyalty” tend to denounce dissent as “treason”. More basically, fascism can be where you take the basic idea around which a large group is formed and amp it up to the point of extremism. This idea is usually the nation, but it can be a religion - we often speak of Islamo-fascism and even Christo-fascism. To get even more controversial (or half-baked), you could even characterize communism (or Stalinism) as fascist-style socialsm. Take the socialist ideal, take it to extremes, enforce it with extreme authoritarianism, throw in some goose-stepping, and there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/111 "2009-09-17T16:02:43Z")
Wow, I just realized that today is my 10-year anniversary on the Dope. 🆒 Me with my paltry 3,560 posts. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/112 "2009-09-17T16:16:57Z")
When Ike warned us about the military ,industrial, media complex, he was talking about fascism. The control of those facets of our lives are Fascist techniques. Endless wars against vaguely subversive enemies has been our standard. Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan are not attacking America. We endlessly arm and equip for wars, calling it defense. We have the most advanced arms in the world. We could have done much for the world if we did not waste trillions on it. Declaring these enemies are after our freedoms, yet must give our right up to protect them, has been weird logic. But the military controls the message now. I hope Obama does better, but I have little faith. Note, I saw Ikes speech writer on TV and he said Ike wanted the media included but they took it out at the last minute. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/113 "2009-09-17T16:25:25Z")
Wait, I’ve got an even better idea. How about anything we don’t like, we label it “fascism”? Fascism is just a synonym for “bad”, right? ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/114 "2009-09-17T17:37:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Wait, I’ve got an even better idea. How about anything we don’t like, we label it “fascism”? Fascism is just a synonym for “bad”, right? So is “communisum”, “socialism”, and “Nazi”. If you use all four (these three plus fascism) then it’s extra bad. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/115 "2009-09-17T18:21:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t think **Lonesome Polecat** and credibility have been in the same zip code in years. Do not post personal insults in Greeat Debates. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/116 "2009-09-18T02:47:35Z")
No, I don’t think fascism boils down to anything that you think is ‘bad’. For me the hijacking of the democratic process is the key element- thanks to everyone else who is sharing their perspective on this. What is sticking in my craw right now is the fact that Obama won the election, quite handily thank you, on a platform containing (and correct me if I’m wrong) health care for all Americans. I took that as a public option at the time, though I suppose there are other ways to go about it. In any case, did an impressive majority _not_ vote for this? And yet, the insurance companies are pulling their strings with congresscritters while also being the people behind the teabag/extreme protest movement (Rachel Maddow explained the connection, I’ll try to find that link). And Fox is getting in on the act spreading all kinds of bs. The result is that health care is being watered down more and more, against the will of the voters as I see it. So whose government is it? Last I checked though my local streets weren’t clogged with maniacal protesters. It seems mostly a media phenomenon! And so the democratic process seems disrupted in the kind of ways that fit Britt’s definition of fascism. On some points anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/117 "2009-09-18T02:57:20Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The author argues that the tipping point of fascism occurs when \*\*conservative elites \*\*sanction a thuggish base to achieve their goals through extra-democratic means. Bolding mine. Please answer this for me: What’s an elite? Who are are the conservative elites? Who are the liberal ones? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/118 "2009-09-22T02:25:39Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Please answer this for me: What’s an elite? Who are are the conservative elites? Who are the liberal ones? I take the elites to be those with the most influential roles. [Rachel Maddow discusses some of the people behind the teabag movement](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JvSS4RY-Xw&feature=related). Guys like former GOP Majority leader Dick Armey have a lot of skills that are useful to the latest officeholders, and corporations pay them big bucks for lobbying and quasi-propagandistic media/publicity efforts. This clip goes into some who are funding the anti-health care reform effort (it’s Freedomworks for one- I couldn’t find the clip where she goes more in depth into the connection between them and the teabaggers) and why it is dishonest. Not exactly Darth Vader, just retired repubs and various corporate chiefs. Liberal elites? I still feel like ‘liberal’ is only something one can be accused of being. Not something that is specifically real outside talk-radio-world. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/119 "2009-09-26T02:32:27Z")
Pulled from a thread in the Pit, here’s an [article](http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/4946) about the phenomenon of ‘eliminationism’ that pulls together an entirely different constellation of fascist data points. It is in reference to a book on the subject, here’s a quote: > [@](#): > > “The Eliminationists” attempts a grand theory of the right-wing mentality. “What motivates this kind of talk and behavior is called eliminationism: a politics and culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas in favor of the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through suppression, exile, and ejection, or extermination,” he writes. Calling eliminationism “a signature trait of fascism,” Neiwert offers a deft and scrupulous synthesis of academic research on fascism, which has been drained of its meaning from both liberal overuse (as Neiwert admits) and conservative up-is-downism. I suppose it is debatable whether or not this is a ‘signature trait of fascism’ or not, but I don’t think it is debatable that we have been witnessing it from the right over the past year. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927/120 "2010-10-20T14:18:37Z")
The story of [Joe Miller’s private security guards handcuffing a reporter for asking him questions he didn’t like"]Joe Miller’s private security guards handcuffing a reporter for asking him questions he didn’t like]([http://www.adn.com/2010/10/17/1506223/miller-security-guards-handcuff.html](http://www.adn.com/2010/10/17/1506223/miller-security-guards-handcuff.html)) has me reviving this thread. > [@](#): > > The editor of the Alaska Dispatch website was arrested by U.S. Senate candidate Joe Miller’s private security guards Sunday as the editor attempted to interview Miller at the end of a public event in an Anchorage school. > Tony Hopfinger was handcuffed by the guards and detained in a hallway at Central Middle School until Anchorage police came and told the guards to release Hopfinger. I am sure this event is being discussed elsewhere in the board, but look how perfectly this one picks up where this thread left off: > [@](#): > > “What motivates this kind of talk and behavior is called eliminationism: a politics and culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas in favor of the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through suppression, exile, and ejection, or extermination,” I’ve heard Miller on the radio defending his actions by saying that too many people are trying to make the campaign about things that are ‘irrelevant’, namely his record. So! Now candidates, instead of voters, decide what is relevant, and arrest anyone who disagrees. Fits perfectly in context with the rest of this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-moving-toward-fascism/505927.md?page=7)