# Are we now a Christian nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806 "2004-11-03T18:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/1 "2004-11-03T18:21:23Z")
Obviously christianity has been the majority religion in America since European settlers came here, but until now there has been a careful division between religion and the government. The line has been crossed before, and in some local areas the line doesn’t exist at all, but I think we’re closer now to a national establishment of religion than ever before. Presidents have pursued religious agendas before, and so have congresses. Even the Supreme Court has done the same, but as far as I know, all three major branches of government have never pursued a conservative Christian agenda together at once. Can anyone prove otherwise? Bush has been given a pretty obvious mandate, judging by the popular vote. He’s never been afraid to tell us that he had no problem mixing his Christian religion with his duties as the president, and now he has the even more firmly conservative House and Senate in full support of him. Soon, he will be able to appoint a Supreme Court justice that will tip the balance of power in our judicial system as well. What defense do we have against the possibility of a national establishment of religion now? The Constitution, supposedly, but with the Supreme Court, the Congress, the President, and overwhelming voter support all apparently in agreement, I don’t trust in the strength of the document to prevent theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/2 "2004-11-03T18:29:19Z")
I made a related thread on this forum today. > **[What is the role of religion in the results of this US election?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284564)** > > I won’t comment on the result. I predicted weeks ago that Bush would get what he wants: The support of the lazy ignorants who refuse to see the truth and adore his empty rethoric juiced with religious undertones. While I was watching the coverage... I think your OP and mine are more or less about the same issue. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/3 "2004-11-03T19:24:42Z")
I truly doubt any theocracy in America. The more christians the better, however. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/4 "2004-11-03T19:29:33Z")
No. Never have been, never will be. Several of the Founding Fathers like Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine were all Deists. Evangelicals dispute this but I still believe it true. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/5 "2004-11-03T19:30:09Z")
Reagan was just as much or even more beloved by the religious right. His mandate was far, far larger than W’s. I’d expect, therefore, we return to the same sort of fascist theocracy we had in the mid-80s, with Members-only burquas and mandatory synth-band calls to prayer. Do you really want someone to pull this thread up in a couple years to laugh at the hysteria? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/6 "2004-11-03T19:32:41Z")
> [@EsotericEnigma](#): > > What defense do we have against the possibility of a national establishment of religion now? The Constitution, supposedly, but with the Supreme Court, the Congress, the President, and overwhelming voter support all apparently in agreement, I don’t trust in the strength of the document to prevent theocracy. You apparently have a lot of time on your hands to cook up conspiracy theories. Why don’t you outline for us the process by which the constitution will be jetisoned and a theocracy will arise. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/7 "2004-11-03T19:34:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Several of the Founding Fathers like Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine were all Deists. Not “several;” nearly all. Washington, Hancock, the Adams were others. Lincoln was most likely atheist. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/8 "2004-11-03T19:37:45Z")
Is Turkey an Islamic state? Here is an interesting passage from the Treaty of Tripoli, which was signed by the second President and passed the Congress unanimously Nov. 4, 1796. Specifically, Article 11: > [@](#): > > As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion… ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/9 "2004-11-03T19:41:10Z")
No question. I just received a letter saying that I would not get my tax return this year unless I converted to Christianity, and my daughter narrowly avoided a roving young Christian press gang on her way to school this morning. Wait, I hear on the radio that Bush just issued a fatwa against Al Sharpton as an apostate; gotta run and check out the news. ---
**Author:** ![Israfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/87869e/32.png) [@Israfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Israfel)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/10 "2004-11-03T19:45:54Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No. Never have been, never will be. Several of the Founding Fathers like Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine were all Deists. Evangelicals dispute this but I still believe it true. I got the impression that Franklin wasn’t a deist. There’s a part in his autobiography where he mentions that some of the most immoral people he knew were Deists- and so he comes to the conclusion that deism is an ineffective religion. I don’t have a copy of the book to double check that though But yeah, he definitely wasn’t evangelical. ---
**Author:** ![EsotericEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e274bd/32.png) [@EsotericEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EsotericEnigma)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/11 "2004-11-03T20:02:11Z")
I didn’t see your thread, Aldebaran. I’ll bring my discussion over there instead. ---
**Author:** ![Israfel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/87869e/32.png) [@Israfel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Israfel)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/12 "2004-11-03T20:07:43Z")
Here’s the passage from the autobiography- > [@](#): > > Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. My arguments perverted some others, particularly Collins and Ralph; but, each of them having afterwards wrong’d me greatly without the least compunction, and recollecting Keith’s conduct towards me (who was another freethinker), and my own towards Vernon and Miss Read, which at times gave me great trouble, I began to suspect that this doctrine, tho’ it might be true, was not very useful. I don’t know- I guess you could still call him a Deist despite his misgivings. His focus on results however seem to foreshadow the pragmatist movement more than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/13 "2004-11-03T20:42:57Z")
I don’t think we’re going to become a “convert-or-die” theocracy by any means, but what does concern me is the manner in which Bush seems to want to trump what normally would be considered states-rights issues with federal/constitutional laws, even though the general thought is that conservatism is about lessening the influence of government. And that these issues all seem to be “morality-based”, or religious-based, or sin-based, if you will. For instance: Stem-cell research: Will he/can he have a reaction to the California vote? He’s already denied federal funding. Abortion: repeal of Roe v Wade Marijuana laws: all the trouble given to states that pass lenient/medical use laws Gay marriage: constitutional amendment (!) General breaking down the wall of SCOTAS: Will we start seeing the Ten Commandments allowed in judicial buildings etc, without appropriate or necessary recognition of other religions’ “commandments”? I’m not well-read on any of the above issues, it’s more of a gut instinct type thing. Nor am I saying it’s going to happen, just that if it does than although we’re not on the road to theocracy, we are on the road to being Christian-dominated with governmental approval, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/14 "2004-11-03T21:08:46Z")
You’ve got a few things mixed up about “state’s rights”: > [@rexnervous](#): > > Stem-cell research: Will he/can he have a reaction to the California vote? He’s already denied federal funding. No, he can’t. This is an example of states doing as they please. > [@](#): > > Abortion: repeal of Roe v Wade Which would RETURN the control of that issue to the states > [@](#): > > Marijuana laws: all the trouble given to states that pass lenient/medical use laws > Gay marriage: constitutional amendment (!) You pegged those correctly as states’ issues Bush wants to co-opt for the feds. > [@](#): > > General breaking down the wall of SCOTAS: Will we start seeing the Ten Commandments allowed in judicial buildings etc, without appropriate or necessary recognition of other religions’ “commandments”? Ever seen the Supreme Court Building? It’s been there all along. I think you are making the mistake of thinking it’s OK to federalize YOUR issues, but not the issues you disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/15 "2004-11-03T21:11:21Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I truly doubt any theocracy in America. > The more christians the better, however. Wow - that’s a pretty egotistical thing to say. ---
**Author:** ![Airblairxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Airblairxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airblairxxx)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/16 "2004-11-03T21:22:58Z")
There’s at least one conservative who sees in yesterday’s results a [mandate for a culture war.](http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/bennett200411031109.asp) ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/17 "2004-11-04T03:11:12Z")
I don’t think so; whats wrong with christians? I don’t want a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/18 "2004-11-04T06:06:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > General breaking down the wall of SCOTAS: Will we start seeing the Ten Commandments allowed in judicial buildings etc, without appropriate or necessary recognition of other religions’ “commandments”? > > Ever seen the Supreme Court Building? It’s been there all along. Not really. Have _you_ ever seen the Supreme Court Building? The words “Thou shalt have no other gods than me” aren’t there. Moses, as one of many historical lawgivers, is shown in several places, along with such historical lawgivers as Solon, Confucius, and Muhammad. [This page](http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/archdetails.html) from the Supreme Court’s website has links to a number of PDF files describing different aspects of the building’s architecture; note especially the [north and south friezes](http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf) (PDF file) in the Supreme Court chamber, where the Biblical figures Moses and Solomon share equal billing with Menes (legendary first king of Egypt), Hammurabi, Lycurgus (formulator of the Spartan law code), Solon, Draco (hey, his laws were proverbially “Draconian”, but they _were_ laws), Confucius, Octavian (the Emperor Augustus), Justinian, Muhammad (a shout out to sharia as one of the world’s notable law codes from the Supreme Court), Charlemagne, King John (for letting the Magna Carta be extorted from him), Louis IX, Hugo Grotius, Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon (for the Code Napoleon, of course, not for trying to invade Russia in the winter). Moses also appears on the [east pediment](http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/eastpediment.pdf) (PDF file), along with Confucius and Solon again. (The tablets Moses are holding here are blank. The tablets on the frieze in the interior of the building do have some Hebrew characters which I am told do spell out part of the Ten Commandments, although I have heard that the part which is visible doesn’t include any of the “No other gods before me” part; i.e., none of what Protestants normally consider to be the first four commandments dealing with man’s relationship with God.) The “significant events in the evolution of justice in the Western tradition” illustrated on the building’s [bronze doors](http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/bronzedoors.pdf) (PDF file) don’t include any Biblical stories. In other words, a celebration of _law_, not religious faith, and most certainly including “appropriate or necessary recognition of other religions’ commandments”. ---
**Author:** ![ShockingAlberto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ea924/32.png) [@ShockingAlberto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShockingAlberto)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/19 "2004-11-04T06:15:39Z")
> [@vanilla](#): > > I don’t think so; whats wrong with christians? > I don’t want a theocracy. …what’s wrong with any other system of beliefs? “The more Christians the better,” seems to imply “Christians _are_ better.” I apologize if that’s not what you meant, but I doubt I’m the only one to read it like that. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2004, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806/20 "2004-11-04T06:25:04Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Lincoln was most likely atheist. 😕 From Lincoln’s first inaugural address in 1861: > [@](#): > > Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him, who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty. Also see [The Puzzling Faith of Abraham Lincoln](http://www.christianitytoday.com/holidays/memorial/features/33h010.html) by Mark A. Noll in _Christianity Today_. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-now-a-christian-nation/272806.md?page=2)