# Are we OK with religions as long as people don't publically express the beliefs of those religions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965 "2013-12-22T19:11:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/41 "2013-12-23T09:58:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > However, I asked you not to explain what you believed, but why you believed it. I already did explain that. I believe it because that’s how religious people act _all the time;_ their religion tells them to do something, and they do it. You are the one making the implausible claim that suddenly when it comes to homosexuality they _aren’t_ doing what their religion tells them to do because it tells them to do so, but apparently by _pure coincidence_ are doing exactly what their religion demands for reasons that have nothing to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/42 "2013-12-23T12:08:40Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Regarding the latest brouhaha about one of Duck Dynasty’s stars saying that homosexuality is a sin, I don’t get why people are surprised by him having this opinion. I don’t see why this has made the news at all. If someone is a devout Christian, and especially if they are from the South, odds are that he thinks being gay is a sin. In other news, the Pope is Catholic. > > It seems to me that the lesson to take away from this incident is that we let people have religions with beliefs we disagree with, as long they don’t express them publicly. > > For example, Catholics believe that everyone who is not Catholic is going to hell. We are OK with having Catholics on TV and in the public sphere, but if any of them is interviewed and says “yes, I believe you are going to hell, as is everyone out there who isn’t Catholic”, we will all throw a collective fit and they will get fired. > > It seems a bit strange to me. We either give them a pass due to the “religion exemption” or we don’t. Whether they explicitly express their unpopular opinion publicly or not should be irrelevant. > > We don’t like Neo Nazis, and if someone is a self-professed Neo Nazi, we don’t need to wait for them to publicly express what they think of Jews and Blacks to know that we don’t want them on TV or in the public sphere. It’s pretty obvious what they believe in, and society rejects that. > > Similarly, it’s pretty obvious what devout Christians believe about homosexuality, and we don’t need to wait for them to express it publicly. We are either OK with them believing this stuff or we are not. Waiting for them to confirm it should be irrelevant. I see nothing wrong with people expressing their beliefs in public, Jut not trying to force other’s to their beliefs. Of course Christians seem to want that more than other religious people, but forget the Man they worship didn’t seem to care much for the Pharisees who made their public displays. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/43 "2013-12-23T12:18:27Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > You also have to recognize that there are different ways to handle various religious beliefs. It’s one thing to believe a behavior is wrong and another thing to believe that there should be legal enforcement of your moral position. > > For example, compare how people treat premarital sex and homosexuality. Most religious people agree that both of these are sins. Maybe they feel like there are different degrees of badness, but you won’t find many church-goers who say that premarital sex is just fine. And yet many churchgoers who want to prevent gay marriage aren’t up in arms about criminalizing premarital sex. People who would freak out about a gay teen think that a sexually active teen is just part of growing up. > > That’s pretty much my position on the issue - both activities are sinful and not something I’d recommend. If I want one to be illegal, it’s hypocritical to not want the other to be illegal as well. But it’s not the government’s job to enforce morality on consenting adults. If no one is being harmed, then that’s really between you and God. Now days most people I know who worry about gay people are divorced and remarried and the Christian Bible says that is adultery. The just say their other marriage (or marriages) were not valid for some reason or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/44 "2013-12-23T12:43:25Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > …This is exactly my point. If someone says they are a devout Catholic, most people should know, roughly, the beliefs that that person has. Those beliefs include ones they agree with (e.g. “help the poor”) and ones they disagree with (“homosexuality is a sin”). You can’t accept or reject a friend or colleague based only on the subset they have decided to publicly express. It seems to me the logical approach is to look at the totality of beliefs in a religion, and if the good balances out the bad, you accept this person, and if the bad outweighs the good, you reject this person. > > But being accepting of a person as long as he expresses only the subset of his religion you agree with, and then reject them when they express the subset you disagree with (and which you should have known he most likely espouses since he is devout) is irrational. In fact, the current Pope seems to think that poverty is a bigger problem than homosexuality. I’ll criticize beliefs I find offensive & hateful whether or not the bigots in question use religion as an excuse. Plenty of them have “logical, scientific” reasons for their wrongheadedness. (Not “logic” or “science” as understood by most sane people, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/45 "2013-12-23T14:14:41Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > But the thing is that there is so much personal variation within any religious group that I really can’t reliably state that someone believes something because they are a member of that group. I know catholics that are gay and don’t believe it is a sin, I know catholics who do believe that anyone not of their faith is going to hell. Given such examples of opinions held that are outside of that religion’s mainstream, I judge people based on the opinions they actually express. Much easier that way. Very true, especially in the States. An American Catholic is quite a different creature than, say, an Italian Catholic. This is a country that was founded by Protestant religious dissenters who spread the “gospel of individualism”, and that spirit permeates the American Catholic Church in a way that completely vexes the Vatican. You can see this just by going to church and watching all the 1 and 2-children families that walk through the door. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/46 "2013-12-23T14:25:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I already did explain that. I believe it because that’s how religious people act _all the time;_ their religion tells them to do something, and they do it. You are the one making the implausible claim that suddenly when it comes to homosexuality they _aren’t_ doing what their religion tells them to do because it tells them to do so, but apparently by _pure coincidence_ are doing exactly what their religion demands for reasons that have nothing to do with religion. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think he’s asking for a citation, not a recounting of your beliefs. I.e., **Ibn Warriq** wants you to say: “In page 264 of _Das Kapital_ it states…” Not… "… I believe it because… " And it is an interesting question, Der Trihs: Where in the standard literature of Communism does it say to discriminate against gays? You made the assertion, let’s back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/47 "2013-12-23T19:00:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > This is exactly my point. If someone says they are a devout Catholic, most people should know, roughly, the beliefs that that person has. Those beliefs include ones they agree with (e.g. “help the poor”) and ones they disagree with (“homosexuality is a sin”). All the practicing Catholics I personally know are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. Knowing someone’s religion isn’t really a very useful guide to guessing their politics. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/48 "2013-12-23T19:25:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The issue with this claim is, in essence, that people are hypocrites, and this is one of those cases where that goes well. How many catholic women use birth control? How many homosexuals are devout Christians/Muslims? How many Christians ignore 99% of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy? On the contrary, a Christian who OBEYED all of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy would be hypocritical. The Jewish ceremonial Law was explicitly given to the Jews and no other nation, and the New Testament explicitly declares that, since the time of Christ, said Law has been superseded even for Jews. The Christian is obliged to believe that the Jewish ceremonial Law was instituted by God as a foreshadowing of Christ, and that if he had been a Jew living 2,000 years ago he would have had to follow it, but it would be gravely sinful for him to attempt to follow it today. > [@dracoi](#): > > You also have to recognize that there are different ways to handle various religious beliefs. It’s one thing to believe a behavior is wrong and another thing to believe that there should be legal enforcement of your moral position. > > For example, compare how people treat premarital sex and homosexuality. Most religious people agree that both of these are sins. Maybe they feel like there are different degrees of badness, but you won’t find many church-goers who say that premarital sex is just fine. And yet many churchgoers who want to prevent gay marriage aren’t up in arms about criminalizing premarital sex. People who would freak out about a gay teen think that a sexually active teen is just part of growing up. > > That’s pretty much my position on the issue - both activities are sinful and not something I’d recommend. If I want one to be illegal, it’s hypocritical to not want the other to be illegal as well. But it’s not the government’s job to enforce morality on consenting adults. If no one is being harmed, then that’s really between you and God. There’s a big difference between opposing celebration of something and making it a crime. I think it’s perfectly consistent to say that both fornication and sodomy should be legal, and yet neither should receive a document of official government endorsement from the county clerk. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/49 "2013-12-23T19:32:01Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > I think it’s perfectly consistent to say that both fornication and sodomy should be legal, and yet neither should receive a document of official government endorsement from the county clerk. Then what were all those permit fees for?! ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/50 "2013-12-23T20:07:01Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Maybe I’m wrong, but I think he’s asking for a citation, not a recounting of your beliefs. I.e., **Ibn Warriq** wants you to say: > > “In page 264 of _Das Kapital_ it states…” > > Not… > "… I believe it because… " > > And it is an interesting question, Der Trihs: Where in the standard literature of Communism does it say to discriminate against gays? > > You made the assertion, let’s back it up. Ibn Warraq was the first to assert that Communist propaganda said negative things about homosexuals. Der Trihs agreed with him. Der Trihs would love it if Communists didn’t have any anti-homosexual propaganda, since that would completely sidestep Ibn Warraq’s gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/51 "2013-12-23T20:12:43Z")
Missed edit: I mean, assuming Ibn Warraq was going for You think Christians are homophobic due to Christian anti-gay ideology, why don’t you think some Athiests are homophobic due to Communist anti-gay ideology, you hypocrite? and not You think Christians are homophobic due to Christian anti-gay ideology, why are there non-Christian homophobes? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/52 "2013-12-23T20:20:36Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > Ibn Warraq was the first to assert that Communist propaganda said negative things about homosexuals. Der Trihs agreed with him. Der Trihs would love it if Communists didn’t have any anti-homosexual propaganda, since that would completely sidestep Ibn Warraq’s gotcha. Gotcha. I must have lost track of that in all these damned [Duck Hunt](http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/duckhunt.png) threads. :smack: My apologies, DT and IW. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/53 "2013-12-23T20:32:56Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 😕 > > Dopers have been responding with attempts to have you arrested or assaulted? > > That would be a fascinating thing to see. Could you link to some examples, please? I would be only too happy to do so, but my computer is in the shop; posting here is difficult on a cell phone. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/54 "2013-12-23T20:33:03Z")
I don’t see why “communism” should oppose homosexuality, but the Soviet Union did, and I gather China does. Of course, we’ve had people on this board who were eager to explain away any flaws in Soviet or Chinese practices as not true communism; communism remaining a pure ideal that flawed humans have never managed to achieve but should keep striving for anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/55 "2013-12-23T20:35:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I would be only too happy to do so, but my computer is in the shop; posting here is difficult on a cell phone. Give us some search terms, then. A few specific phrases you used in a statement that prompted a “you should be arrested” or “you should be beaten” response. I admit I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened - I’m just mildly curious. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/56 "2013-12-23T20:44:47Z")
My own opinion is that religious rules mostly follow homophobia, but still contribute to homophobia. The rules were written by homophobes, and are emphasized over unkempt hair, no shellfish, etc due to pre-existing non-religious homophobia. However, there are probably church-goers without pre-existing non-religious homophobia, but are told that Homosexuality is a sin, and react negatively to gay people for that reason. Furthermore, homophobia written into religious works provide cover for homophobes. How many people are complaining about A&E punishing Phil for expressing his “religious beliefs?” It adds undeserved legitimacy to homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/57 "2013-12-23T20:45:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t see why “communism” should oppose homosexuality, but the Soviet Union did, and I gather China does. Of course, we’ve had people on this board who were eager to explain away any flaws in Soviet or Chinese practices as not true communism; communism remaining a pure ideal that flawed humans have never managed to achieve but should keep striving for anyway. That’s why I pointed out that most communist nations had extremely harsh anti-gay laws and then asked him if he thought this was due to the a Communist ideology or if this was an example of others manipulating communist ideology to declare homosexuality “bourgeoise decadence” rather being inspired by communist ideology to be homophobes. I genuinely expected him to say the latter and have asked him why he believes that but he’s repeatedly refused to explain his reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/58 "2013-12-23T20:46:57Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > Missed edit: > > I mean, assuming Ibn Warraq was going for You think Christians are homophobic due to Christian anti-gay ideology, why don’t you think some Athiests are homophobic due to Communist anti-gay ideology, you hypocrite? and not You think Christians are homophobic due to Christian anti-gay ideology, why are there non-Christian homophobes? The former though I’d replace “atheists” with “communists”. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/59 "2013-12-23T20:47:19Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Gotcha. I must have lost track of that in all these damned [Duck Hunt](http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/duckhunt.png) threads. :smack: > > My apologies, DT and IW. > [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > That’s why I pointed out that most communist nations had extremely harsh anti-gay laws and then asked him if he thought this was due to the a Communist ideology or if this was an example of others manipulating communist ideology to declare homosexuality “bourgeoise decadence” rather being inspired by communist ideology to be homophobes. > > I genuinely expected him to say the latter and have asked him why he believes that but he’s repeatedly refused to explain his reasoning. you may have been right (JohnT). I’m not sure anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965/60 "2013-12-23T20:51:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The former though I’d replace “atheists” with “communists”. Fair enough, I put some atheists to mean the set of atheists who were communists, since I don’t think der trihs identifies with communism much, and the hypocracy charge seems a lot stronger if it is a group he identifies with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-ok-with-religions-as-long-as-people-dont-publically-express-the-beliefs-of-those-religions/676965.md?page=4)