# Are we on the verge of a national police force? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 30, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891 "2015-04-30T13:58:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/41 "2015-05-01T04:53:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Plenty of countries have national police forces, including countries just as free and democratic as the U.S. It won’t happen, but even if it does, it’s wouldn’t be that bad a thing. Speaking as someone who lives in one such country (even worse : we technically have a national \*military \*police), I admit to being somewhat bemused at the ooga-booga factor at play in the OP. But then I remembered that Americans also often seem horrified at the idea of mandatory ID, which we also have and… “_shrug_ what about them ?”, you know ? [QUOTE=Lumpy] If anything, we need police that are more community based and not less. A big part of the current problem is police who have no connection to the areas they patrol, and basically act like an occupying army. [/QUOTE] Interesting. And, again, a bit bemusing to me - around here the first thing they do when you apply for the \*gendarmerie \*is ship you someplace else. This to avoid you having to police your family, your old buddies (or your old enemies) etc… which would either be awkward for you if you actually were dealing with them as a professional cop should, or would set up favoritism/harassment scenarios and the like. Not sure how that works with regards to our local municipal police forces though. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/42 "2015-05-01T11:04:47Z")
Ok, so the National guard is, as you say, NOT a national police force. (Not questioning the accuracy of this, just trying to undstand!) So how come they are the go to force for instances such as integrating schools, (back in the day, obviously!) the states wouldn’t abide so the government called in the National Guard to make it happen. When they are sent in to restore order in places like Ferguson etc, how are they acting as anything other than a national police force? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/43 "2015-05-01T11:24:39Z")
They are only called out in emergencies. They are state militias and thus can supplement state police forces if necessary. It is illegal for the US army to be used for such a purpose: > **[Posse Comitatus Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act)** > > The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) signed on June 18, 1878, by President Rutherford B. Hayes which limits the powers of the federal government in the use of federal military personnel to enforce domestic policies within the United States. Congress passed the Act as an amendment to an army appropriation bill following the end of Reconstruction and updated it in 1956 and 1981. > The Act originally applied only to the United States ... ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/44 "2015-05-01T12:06:12Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So how come they are the go to force for instances such as integrating schools, (back in the day, obviously!) the states wouldn’t abide so the government called in the National Guard to make it happen. > > When they are sent in to restore order in places like Ferguson etc, how are they acting as anything other than a national police force? While the troops are the same, the two examples you gave are very different. In Little Rock, AK, when Eisenhower called in the National Guard to ensure the safe integration of the schools, the NG had been _federalized_ and were under the control of the US Government. Kennedy did the same thing in Alabama. The were used to enforce US Federal Court orders. Nearly all other uses of federalizing the NG are to send soldiers into combat overseas. However, most cases of using the NG (as in Ferguson) they are under the control of the State Government. It’s a subtle but important distinction. To heighten the contrast, in Little Rock the governor first used the NG to oppose integration, but once the guard was federalized they no longer followed his orders. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/45 "2015-05-01T17:30:03Z")
‘Had been federalized’ Is that a temporary thing, for that moment? Or permanent, for all time? Are they not, when federalized, effectively a national police force? (Temporarily or permanently!) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/46 "2015-05-01T17:38:22Z")
[QUOTE=elbows] Is that a temporary thing, for that moment? Or permanent, for all time? [/QUOTE] Temporary…usually for some crisis, either civil or natural disaster type thing. > [@](#): > > Are they not, when federalized, effectively a national police force? (Temporarily or permanently!) No, because they aren’t empowered to act nationally or for just anything, but instead have a more focused and vertical mission concerning whatever they got called up and empowered to act on. A national police force implies they have a broader mission both in scope and in the area they are empowered to act within. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/47 "2015-05-01T17:56:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > (even worse : we technically have a national \*military \*police) So do we! But if you try to explain the concept of a [gendarmerie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie)to Americans, you run a risk of having their heads explode. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/48 "2015-05-01T18:00:10Z")
I fail to see how nationalizing the municipal police forces will make anything different? They will still hire the same proportion of assholes. It wouldn’t change anything in of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/49 "2015-05-01T18:34:51Z")
This PDF is a reasonable summary of what the National Guard can be used for, and by whom. [http://www.ngaus.org/sites/default/files/Guard%20Statues.pdf](http://www.ngaus.org/sites/default/files/Guard%20Statues.pdf) The justifications are pretty broad, meaning that most any instance of major civil unrest would allow the President to federalize the NG. They were federalized for integration in AK, MS, and AL, for riot control when MLK was assassinated and after the Rodney King verdict, Katrina, the Branch Davidians in Waco, and I’m sure a few others. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/50 "2015-05-01T18:35:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Perhaps a national police force to police the (local) police would be more warranted. [I got a better idea.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462&highlight=tribunate) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/51 "2015-05-01T18:36:43Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Kennedy did the same thing in Alabama. Correction, Kennedy federalized the NG in Mississippi to help integrate schools. Johnson called in the NG in Selma, AL. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/52 "2015-05-01T18:48:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So do we! But if you try to explain the concept of a [gendarmerie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie)to Americans, you run a risk of having their heads explode. The more so as “gendarme” is also a (now rather obsolete) term for a country’s secret police/political police, as in, “Scratch a revolutionary and find a gendarme.” (Said of the Bolsheviks when they came to power in Russia and started censoring other parties’ media.) In that sense, the FBI (together with local PDs’ “Red Squads”) has at times been the American gendarmerie. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/53 "2015-05-01T19:20:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So do we! But if you try to explain the concept of a [gendarmerie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmerie)to Americans, you run a risk of having their heads explode. It’s a fairly simple concept: occupation troops, only they’re that country’s own troops. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/54 "2015-05-01T19:40:02Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It’s a fairly simple concept: occupation troops, only they’re that country’s own troops. Yet France remains a free country. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891/55 "2015-05-05T02:00:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Interesting. And, again, a bit bemusing to me - around here the first thing they do when you apply for the \*gendarmerie \*is ship you someplace else. This to avoid you having to police your family, your old buddies (or your old enemies) etc… which would either be awkward for you if you actually were dealing with them as a professional cop should, or would set up favoritism/harassment scenarios and the like. > Not sure how that works with regards to our local municipal police forces though. I’m not sure if it’s a nationwide phenomenon, but in Florida police officers tend to live “one town over” from the one they work for (as a matter of choice rather than employer policy.) That way they avoid many conflicts of interest and don’t run as great a risk of running into the guy they had to arrest last week while off duty and with the kids or whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-national-police-force/718891.md?page=2)